A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[37Oban]

11 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

IIf I were World Oligarch, I would ban all detail that cannot be seen when the rolling stock is right way up, on the track. If you aspire to show all the gubbins under a wagon that cannot normally be seen, then perhaps you also aspire to derailments and other rail-bourn catastrophes, which show off the underside of said wagon. No railwayman aspires to that kind of accident!

 

Having mentioned lamp brackets, if Rapido or Accurascale are wondering what to wow us with next, how about scale sized lamp brackets, made of metal, which are securely fitted to the model and on to which the modeller can deposit the correct configuration of lamps for whatever train the loco is working? That would get my vote.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this!  I seriously think that the model designers never actuctually "look" at the real thing to see what it actually visible!  Even enlarged photographs of rolling sock doesn't show all the pipes and undergubbins that they insist on adding unless said vehicle is upside down following an accident!

 

I feel that, for some modellers, it's a case of bragging rights!  I know this view will offend some, but that's what I think!  If you can't see it on the prototype from the lineside if the train is stood, let alone passing when you're stood on a platform, then what is the point?  Surely what is more important is how close the external visible appearance of he model is is to prototype and how well it runs!  We run steam locomotives and diesels with electric motors so why don't people complain about that?  Imagine, a steam powered 4mm black 5 with working brakes, or a Cl37 with diesel engine, generator, traction motor to each axle,train heating and brakes coupled to a rake of mk1 coaches with wqrking brakes and steam heating!  Then imagine the cost! 

 

If people want all the bells and whistles then fair enough, but, and it's a big but, what about all of us who just want a model that looks good and runs well at a reasonable price?  I model EM, but most of my stock is used, kit or scratchbuilt.  It looks good but lacks all the underside details because my philosphy is if I can't see it when on the layout why bother with it!

 

Roja

[Dunsignalling]

52 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Can it be conclusively proved added detail is adding considerable costs, as opposed to the modern global economic factors which are causing prices to rise in all areas not just this hobby?

Because there are plenty of other hobbies where prices have increased considerably, but detail has not. Only the manufacturers themselves can really answer the question but I know which side of the argument I stand on having seen this happening in many places outside model railways.

Edit: You only have to look at prices being charged by certain manufacturers for toolings that are 10-20 years old at this point. There are far bigger factors at play.

 

Without wishing to sound unduly cynical (just duly cynical, perhaps 😇 ), the prices being asked for new models from elderly tooling just reflect those for the latest stuff dragging everything else upward, including second-hand items.

 

Early China-sourced Hornby locos now commonly fetch 50% more used than they cost when new, even the plentiful ones.

 

It's just what the market will stand....

 

John 

Edited March 12 by Dunsignalling

[Harlequin]

Underframe details are often visible when vehicles are running on embankments and the viewpoint is slightly below. Seeing the correct gubbins in silhouette makes the view more realistic.

 

[McC]

Some companies will make toys. Some make models. Some make very detailed scale models. Choice is golden. 

[Tim Dubya]

The B sets, as beautiful as they are, are out of my price range unfortunately.  The Toplights @£56 each were at top price point for me, in fact they were £6 over what I would really want to pay.  I'm glad these are going to exist and I guess if I was a GWR modeller I might have a different opinion on the pricing.

 

Where's those LSWR Corridor's?

 

 

[St Enodoc]

Just now, Tim Dubya said:

The B sets, as beautiful as they are, are out of my price range unfortunately.  The Toplights @£56 each were at top price point for me, in fact they were £6 over what I would really want to pay.  I'm glad these are going to exist and I guess if I was a GWR modeller I might have a different opinion on the pricing.

 

Where's those LSWR Corridor's?

 

 

I believe that's a discounted price for the Toplights, Tim, so possibly not comparing apples with apples. RRP seems to be about a tenner more.

 

Time will tell whether the B Sets will be discounted and, if so, by how much.

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, McC said:

Some companies will make toys. Some make models. Some make very detailed scale models. Choice is golden. 

That's quite true but if only one manufacturer makes a particular model then it's Hobson's choice.

[McC]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

That's quite true but if only one manufacturer makes a particular model then it's Hobson's choice.

 

True, why competition is to be encouraged (not decried as 'duplication)

[Ian Hargrave]

49 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I believe that's a discounted price for the Toplights, Tim, so possibly not comparing apples with apples. RRP seems to be about a tenner more.

 

Time will tell whether the B Sets will be discounted and, if so, by how much.

The only serious discounting IIRC with Rapido UK has been with the late lamented Hattons Black Friday sale last November. Other than that there is the imaginative bargain bundle pitch.It’s a small and fledgling company springing to life at inauspicious economic times and has already been blighted by a couple of unfortunate mishaps.So don’t expect other than the “normal” % discount. They need and deserve encouragement for the lines of developing products. Our opinions are being canvassed.Let’s be grateful for that and cut Corbs&co some slack.

Edited March 12 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, McC said:

Some companies will make toys. Some make models. Some make very detailed scale models. Choice is golden. 

Sorry, that sounds like a rather trite and meaningless platitude, but one which also seems to have a hint of self-promotion lurking under the surface.

 

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Sorry, that sounds like a rather trite and meaningless platitude, but one which also seems to have a hint of self-promotion lurking under the surface.

 

Point taken here, Tim, but the very existence of several newcomers in the market has had the effect of causing everyone to expect more, and the manufacturers themselves to ensure we get it. While we might not all agree about particular details, the luxury of quality is always welcome - if we can afford it. And if prices push beyond what the market will generally bear, we will soon become aware by the degree of discounting. 

[McC]

20 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Sorry, that sounds like a rather trite and meaningless platitude, but one which also seems to have a hint of self-promotion lurking under the surface.

 

 

Sorry, that sounds a rather trite and cynical platitude? There are many models in the market at varying levels of detail, and it is a simple statement of fact that the more competition and choice  in the market, the better for the customer who can then choose what price point and level of detail they prefer. The fact remains and is supported by evidence that adding detail, and indeed technology to a model, does not substantially increase the price above and beyond models, which do not feature additional detail and or technology. 
if you would rather manufacturers do not comment, either personally, or officially then, that’s also fine, too. I was simply providing some insight.

Edited March 12 by McC

[gwrrob]

6 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

(with apologies to Rob for talking about products in his thread)

 

 

No need Corwin @RapidoCorbs and we'll be talking about products this coming Saturday at Ally Pally.😎Will there be anything I need my camera for ?😉

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

 the very existence of several newcomers in the market has had the effect of causing everyone to expect more, 

 

One of those has just swept the board at the Model Rail awards.

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, McC said:

Sorry, that sounds a rather trite and cynical platitude? There are many models in the market at varying levels of detail, and it is a simple statement of fact that the more competition and choice  in the market, the better for the customer who can then choose what price point and level of detail they prefer.

 

47 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

One of those has just swept the board at the Model Rail awards.

Well, I have never been one for 'Emperor's new clothes' and I stand by my comments.

 

3 hours ago, McC said:

The fact remains and is supported by evidence that adding detail, and indeed technology to a model, does not substantially increase the price above and beyond models, which do not feature additional detail and or technology. 

I have made no comment in all of this about the price of models. The model will cost what it costs and you have to make some kind of a profit. No one (well, certainly not I) disputes that.

 

I appreciate that the current price of some new models with lots of detail is above what some might be comfortable paying, so I agree with your comment about competition leading to models of the same prototype being offered at different prices.

 

I have always made it clear on this forum that I am happy to pay an appropriate premium for quality. But that means 'quality' as I measure it.

 

What I don't consider 'quality', is models that have so much additional, delicate detail, that said detail becomes extremely vulnerable to handling in everyday use.

 

Also, some people (in some cases, the vast majority of modellers) may consider any given model to be of 'quality', but if the model doesn't run properly, then any perceived 'quality' simply evaporates in my eyes. I have had such poor experiences with the running of recent, so-called quality models (which granted, look lovely), that I now have virtually zero expectations that their future releases will run smoothly and slowly, unless by virtue of the alchemy of DCC.

 

Some of the longer-established 'competitors' are capable of producing good models that run smoothly and slowly under DC control. I fail to understand why any of the newer companies are not capable of selling me a model that does the same. It remains an abiding mystery.

 

One newer company that has managed to produce a consistently smooth running, slow-speed loco is Planet Industrials. I have not heard of anyone complaining about their loco. That, to me, is an example of 'getting it right first time'.

 

3 hours ago, McC said:

if you would rather manufacturers do not comment, either personally, or officially then, that’s also fine, too.

I have at no time asked any manufacturers to desist from commenting or communicating. My personal opinion, for what it's worth (not much, I appreciate) is that there are some manufacturers may like to comment too much, whereas others maintain a more dignified silence.

 

3 hours ago, McC said:

I was simply providing some insight.

Again, sorry. Your original statement :

 

4 hours ago, McC said:

Some companies will make toys. Some make models. Some make very detailed scale models. Choice is golden. 

...sounds (to me) like one of those company 'buzz phrases', couched in 'corporate speak'...

 

Edited March 12 by Captain Kernow

[Fair Oak Junction]

This is one of those very much going over well trodden paths arguments/conversations, and as always it goes back to you can't please everyone.

We all have our opinions, and we've all aired them many times in many threads over many years....and it isn't going to change any time soon! 😄

End of the day our personal opinions don't matter as much as our wallets do, and so the market ebbs and flows with how we spend our money.

[88C]

The added detail is fine by me but more importantly the model must run well. I have not ventured to look inside my more recent locos to see what the drive train is like but a simple two stage mechanism usually works very well so why complicate it, think of a certain 14xx. Perhaps I have been lucky but I have only had to return one model as a failure and that came from one of the big two. I am not a DCC user but it seems that reading comments on RMweb a lot of problems seem to be people are not happy with the supplied settings, however DCC is the way the hobby is going. I can understand that to some extent after operating a DCC layout recently where every loco behaved differently, I like to work to the KISS principle.

 

Brian

[Ian Hargrave]

So at the end of a dreary,wet day,maybe it would be good if we turned to the top of the page and read the heading title that Robin initially posted there and restored the friendliness and frivolity…….if you please gents.

[RapidoCorbs]

3 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

No need Corwin @RapidoCorbs and we'll be talking about products this coming Saturday at Ally Pally.😎Will there be anything I need my camera for ?😉

 

We'll have the N19 and O18 prototypes there if that is of interest to this thread (in case anyone missed them at Warley/MRS)

 

If it's any help to on-topic-ness I've been weathering my new vans (I promise that 'because I want one' isn't the reason we keep making GWR stuff*)

*not the only reason, anyway 😃

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, McC said:

 

True, why competition is to be encouraged (not decried as 'duplication)

 

Mind you, compared with two makers duplicating something I didn't want, I'd far rather one of them made something I did....

 

John

 

[TrevorP1]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Mind you, compared with two makers duplicating something I didn't want, I'd far rather one of them made something I did....

 

John

 

 

Yes, that's when competition is irritating! 🙂 I'm just hoping Ireland or Canada is going to produce an original Bulleid Pacific fit for the 21st Century. Yes I know there's the PDK kit but I only have one pair of hands!

Edited March 12 by TrevorP1

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So at the end of a dreary,wet day,maybe it would be good if we turned to the top of the page and read the heading title that Robin initially posted there and restored the friendliness and frivolity…….if you please gents.

I may struggle with the frivolity, being a miserable old g1t, but I am always friendly. Just ask my panniers.

 

1 hour ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Corbs has reminded me what I can do tomorrow, if it's raining again - buy an example of the new wagons and support one of the few remaining actual model shops in my area.

 

And shortly I shall return to tinkering with a 50 year-old whitemetal kit of a pannier tank, which is proving to be an utter delight.

 

Edited March 12 by Captain Kernow

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

This is one of those very much going over well trodden paths arguments/conversations, and as always it goes back to you can't please everyone.

We all have our opinions, and we've all aired them many times in many threads over many years....and it isn't going to change any time soon! 😄

End of the day our personal opinions don't matter as much as our wallets do, and so the market ebbs and flows with how we spend our money.

Can't argue with the above, expect that personal opinions do control access to our wallets (well, they do here).

 

[BWsTrains]

10 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

I don't count flickering fireboxes in that, though. That's only marginally more irritating than diesel locos,

 

I beg to differ.

 

To me the final section of this epic video, from 12:50 on to the end, as 6024 races into Yatton at full steam, captures the real passion of steam. Footplate and fireman lit up by the glowing firebox, an effect crying out to be emulated. Much more so than by some tiny barely visible interior pics

 

 

 

I've installed DIY firebox glow onto most of my current steam locos and with some care the effect can be muted down to a non intrusive level visible only at certain angles. It gives a most credible enhancement of steam operations at 4mm scale.

 

PS plenty of great other sections in this video; Dawlish on the home leg 8:35 on where waves breach the sea wall and the carriages etc. For purists, the video is a composite from two runs but that barely matters. For lovers of GWR this is must watch.

 

De gustibus non est disputandum

[kingmender]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

 

I beg to differ.

 

To me the final section of this epic video, from 12:50 on to the end, as 6024 races into Yatton at full steam, captures the real passion of steam. Footplate and fireman lit up by the glowing firebox, an effect crying out to be emulated. Much more so than by some tiny barely visible interior pics

 

 

 

I've installed DIY firebox glow onto most of my current steam locos and with some care the effect can be muted down to a non intrusive level visible only at certain angles. It gives a most credible enhancement of steam operations at 4mm scale.

 

PS plenty of great other sections in this video; Dawlish on the home leg 8:35 on where waves breach the sea wall and the carriages etc. For purists, the video is a composite from two runs but that barely matters. For lovers of GWR this is must watch.

 

De gustibus non est disputandum

Cracking footage of 6024 in action. Firebox glow (although in poor daylight) also visible around 5:30. Thanks for sharing, brings back many great memories of support crew and footplate running. My last support crew run being the Bristolian in December 2009 - my avatar picture was taken at Acton yard that day. Sadly its unlikely I'll ever ride the footplate again.

Edited March 12 by kingmender
typo