A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[TrevorP1]

36 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

I disagree Tim, it’s pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in 4mm. If I remember correctly our mutual friend @2ManySpams added this kind of thing to the interiors of coaches for Treneglos.

 

Agreed Rob. 'Something' has to be where the prints and mirror go, so why not an appropriate image? As much detail as possible please and thanks to @RapidoCorbs and colleagues for pushing the bar again. I'm far from wealthy but 2p or £5 I'd rather have this detail than not. Put it another way £45 (say) without detailed compartments or £50 (say) with. No contest in my book.

Edited March 11 by TrevorP1
typo

[TrevorP1]

53 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

What are your thoughts on this effect? From what we could find, the post-42 livery on these opens was very hard to come by and the photo of 86140 showed it was never immaculate in this guise, so we wanted to give some hint as to re-used planks.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

Must appreciated and looking forward to more.

 

The replacement plank effect on the 2024 release of PO wagons looks interesting and opens up a lot of possibilities. Most of my wagons are weathered and with much practice I'm happier with the results and less apprehensive about attacking something straight out of the box. However, replacement plank effects are very difficult to do convincingly, especially where strapping etc is involved. I'm wondering if the planks are given a similar effect on the inside of the wagon or is that not possible?

[gwrrob]

12 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

Put it another way £45 (say) without detailed compartments or £50 (say) with. No contest in my book.

 

The newly released Bachmann full brake in teak is now 60 sheets so I see.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

Sorry, Robin, I consider this to be on a par with the totally unnecessary interior detail on the Toad.

 

No one is going to see it, except Superman, with his X-ray vision...

And there was me going to post my usual quip about the horsehair too….I can’t see it. But seriously,thank you gents for going the extra mile for the GW freaks here. It’s much appreciated.My first ever train ride….c1946….was in a Pannier hauled B set.That’s when B sets ruled the Aberdare-Abercynon branch. And another new pair of spectacles is ordered for delivery soon..Rimless ones…much better for my image 

 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, gwrrob said:

I disagree Tim, it’s pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in 4mm. If I remember correctly our mutual friend @2ManySpams added this kind of thing to the interiors of coaches for Treneglos.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, Robin. I'm really sorry to say that, but there it is. I can't say that providing tiny reproductions of already small frames illustrations is pushing the boundaries, especially when you could buy such things from Tiny Signs back in the 1970s...

 

If Spams did add such detail on Treneglos, then that's entirely his own decision for his own edification. He's such a talented chap that we can excuse him anything (except masterminding the international anti-pannier conspiracy from the underground bunker in his island home).

 

It's like certain other things that some folk do in this hobby, it pleases them to do it, but I personally can't see the point, because I literally can't see it!! Not everyone has Superman's X-ray vision!

 

No doubt I waste some of my time, doing stuff that others think is pointless. That's the way of the world, I suppose.

 

If Rapido want to wow us, if they want to impress us, then why not add detail that is going to be more apparent in passenger stock, such as passengers?! I take my hat off to anyone with sufficiently good eyesight, that they can actually see the tiny pictures inside the coaches and even recognise where it is meant to be. But people, the absence of them is much, much more apparent in coaching stock.

 

Even if it's just two-dimensional colour printed figures (as per a recent MRJ article), the effect could be breath-taking. How many of us baulk at the thought of dismantling coaches and painting sufficient 4mm figures to make it look as if our model train services might actually be making some money?!

 

As for the pointless (but attention-grabbing) interior detail on the Toad, why not instead provide a nice, painted, 3-D printed guard on the veranda? Maybe one that you can remove, if you want to stable the Toad at the back of a siding for a long, wet weekend?

 

Rapido already produce some of the best 4mm rolling stock, so it's not as if they have much room for further improvement, to be honest, those products are already very, very good. Putting such inaccessible and tiny detail inside a very small space, that hardly anyone is going to notice (except through the lens of a digital camera, and how many of us have one of those grafted to the front of our faces?) smacks of wandering up a cul-de-sac, because there isn't anywhere else to go.

 

 

Edited March 11 by Captain Kernow

[Tim Dubya]

TBH, I'd rather have more details on the outsides and/or a lower price with a non detailed interior. 

 

But.... as a thought, and going on from what the Captain said, would it be practical to offer a fully detailed interior with passengers, lighting etc for a premium price or standard interiors like we've had up until now at a lower price point?

 

Edited March 11 by Tim Dubya
gibbajabba

[County of Yorkshire]

I would prefer opening doors and working brake gear and dynamos before detailed interiors. 

[The Fatadder]

8 minutes ago, County of Yorkshire said:

opening doors

Something I never want to see make a return! 

[Andy Keane]

I would probably vote for passengers. Given these cost from 50p up to ten pounds and more per figure they add considerably to the cost of rolling stock, never mind the effort etc. I have just added some folk to my Kernow Railmotor and they definitely help but added £25 to the cost. I feel fairly sure that they could be built in at much lower cost, but then would we all want our rolling stock to have identical people?

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, gwrrob said:

Talking of the B set and Rapido have shewn a render of the interior including a framed image of St Michael's Mount. Delightful.

 

Fascinating. I had no idea that non-corridor coaches had prints and mirrors - although I can't think of a reason why not.

Edited March 11 by St Enodoc

[Mikkel]

The cynical view would be that the "wow" effect of interior detail is a way of drawing attention to your products. 

 

A more romantic view - which with Rapido is perhaps not entirely unlikely - is the George Mallory thing: 

 

-Why did you want to climb Mount Everest?

-Because it's there.

 

[2ManySpams]

10 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, Robin. I'm really sorry to say that, but there it is. I can't say that providing tiny reproductions of already small frames illustrations is pushing the boundaries, especially when you could buy such things from Tiny Signs back in the 1970s...

 

If Spams did add such detail on Treneglos, then that's entirely his own decision for his own edification. He's such a talented chap that we can excuse him anything (except masterminding the international anti-pannier conspiracy from the underground bunker in his island home).

 

It's like certain other things that some folk do in this hobby, it pleases them to do it, but I personally can't see the point, because I literally can't see it!! Not everyone has Superman's X-ray vision!

 

No doubt I waste some of my time, doing stuff that others think is pointless. That's the way of the world, I suppose.

 

If Rapido want to wow us, if they want to impress us, then why not add detail that is going to be more apparent in passenger stock, such as passengers?! I take my hat off to anyone with sufficiently good eyesight, that they can actually see the tiny pictures inside the coaches and even recognise where it is meant to be. But people, the absence of them is much, much more apparent in coaching stock.

 

Even if it's just two-dimensional colour printed figures (as per a recent MRJ article), the effect could be breath-taking. How many of us baulk at the thought of dismantling coaches and painting sufficient 4mm figures to make it look as if our model train services might actually be making some money?!

 

As for the pointless (but attention-grabbing) interior detail on the Toad, why not instead provide a nice, painted, 3-D printed guard on the veranda? Maybe one that you can remove, if you want to stable the Toad at the back of a siding for a long, wet weekend?

 

Rapido already produce some of the best 4mm rolling stock, so it's not as if they have much room for further improvement, to be honest, those products are already very, very good. Putting such inaccessible and tiny detail inside a very small space, that hardly anyone is going to notice (except through the lens of a digital camera, and how many of us have one of those grafted to the front of our faces?) smacks of wandering up a cul-de-sac, because there isn't anywhere else to go.

 

 

 

I can confirm, with no denial option involved, that Spams did indeed do some work on the Maunsell coaches that ran on Treneglos.

 

That work included: renumbering, adding set numbers, fitting dynamo belts, weathering, adding a few passengers and, because I could, printing off and fitting self adhesive overlays for the compartments which had period pictures on.

 

Took minutes to print and add to each compartment. As an extra I stuck tin foil to some double sided tape, cut it into rectangles and added as compartment mirrors.

 

When exhibiting Treneglos, the light did just catch the mirrors, and they were occasionally noticed by those watching. I didn't fit anything in to the guards compartment, not did I add luggage racks. Deffo would not have been seen. 

 

I do have some Maunsell coaches for Pencarrow in 7mm and will be doing the same detailing internally. 

[Oldddudders]

It is evident that we each have a slightly different definition of authenticity. I would argue that much of the brake gear and underfloor detail now provided is only actually visible if the darned vehicle turns turtle - yet we all commend its presence. 

 

When filming All The President's Men in the 1970s - about Nixon and Watergate - many scenes were filmed in a representation of the Washington Post offices. I believe that the director insisted that the rubbish in the waste bins was printed with relevant copy. No-one saw the contents of the bins in the film - but it added authenticity. 

 

St E expressed surprise at compartment stock having ads and mirrors. It certainly did. I recall one journey where some unspeakable bounder had clearly removed the original ad and replaced it with "There will be a meeting for all qualified railway vandals at Wimbledon on such-and-such a date".

[NHY 581]

I think we are very lucky at present, GWR types in particular. I've had the chance to examine the Dapol non- corridor sets and they are simply exquisite. The level of detail is jaw dropping. Rapido's B sets are on a par and probably do surpass them. Add in Rapido's wagons and we have rolling stock with a level of detail that only a few years ago we drooled over in MRJ..........but us mere mortals can now wander into a toy shop and buy. 

 

The challenge this presents of course is providing an equally detailed backdrop against which to display them. 

 

Back in 2015 when I kicked off the Sheep Chronicles thread, my proposed layout revolved around the Kingsbridge branch, a line for which I still have a very soft spot. 

 

With such beautiful stock emerging and with Rapido's forthcoming Prairie tanks this GWR thing is becoming increasingly hard to resist. 

 

If another line was considered, then Accurascale's various Panniers are equally appealing in a Watlingtonesque scenario. Add in the respective factory sound option ( I am a recent DCC convert, though a simpleton approach is adopted )  at a reasonable cost and taking into account the limited motive power requirements for such a small undertaking, this is branch line modelling, with all the bells and whistles, on a plate. 

 

My view therefore is that if our new breed of toy train producers want to push boundaries, then let them. We'll take whatever extra detail you want to chuck in. We also accept the challenge your products present to provide a said suitably detailed back drop. 

 

What we don't want is the return of "Design Clever". 

 

We want "Detail, Detail, Detail........"

 

Rob

[RapidoCorbs]

(with apologies to Rob for talking about products in his thread)

 

With the option to have open droplights in the new coaches we wanted to make sure there was a good representation of an interior, especially when combined with lighting, rather than a blank wall etc.

We've tried to do it in a simple way (note the tampo print is 4 colours max) and add a little easter egg* for people to see.

 

The Toad gained an interior because as part of the Titfield deluxe set, it was the intention to have the guard figure, but to get him in (and to be able to paint the verandah) the roof had to be removable, revealing the interior. As it was part of the Titfield deluxe set with the all-singing, all-dancing level of detail it was decided to paint the interior with a few small details too for the extra 'wow' when taking the roof off to fit figures, rather than an empty unpainted room.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that creating two product lines (high detail and low detail in the example given) costs more to make than a single high-detail production run, annoys the factories/suppliers (as they would rather make a run of 250 identical models rather than 100 of one and 150 of another) and makes retailer stock tricky (how do they make a judgement on which to stock more of so they don't get the wrong type and end up with models they can't sell?).

 

*incidentally on one of the new GW vans there's an easter egg but no-one's spotted it yet to my knowledge.

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

No doubt I waste some of my time, doing stuff that others think is pointless.

Like RMWeb, for example, which I really must wean myself back off! :)

[BenL]

52 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

 

*incidentally on one of the new GW vans there's an easter egg but no-one's spotted it yet to my knowledge.

A nice little bit of period graffiti on the solebar 👌 Was this from a photo or a little bit of creative licence?! 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

My view therefore is that if our new breed of toy train producers want to push boundaries, then let them. We'll take whatever extra detail you want to chuck in. We also accept the challenge your products present to provide a said suitably detailed back drop. 

 

What we don't want is the return of "Design Clever". 

 

We want "Detail, Detail, Detail........"

Fair comment, Rob, but that seems to be pushing prices up to what I consider to be unacceptable heights. 170 quid for a pair of coaches? No thanks - but, if they sell, then I'm obviously the one out of step (not for the first time, I might add...).

[1466]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

It is evident that we each have a slightly different definition of authenticity. I would argue that much of the brake gear and underfloor detail now provided is only actually visible if the darned vehicle turns turtle - yet we all commend its presence. 

 

When filming All The President's Men in the 1970s - about Nixon and Watergate - many scenes were filmed in a representation of the Washington Post offices. I believe that the director insisted that the rubbish in the waste bins was printed with relevant copy. No-one saw the contents of the bins in the film - but it added authenticity. 

 

St E expressed surprise at compartment stock having ads and mirrors. It certainly did. I recall one journey where some unspeakable bounder had clearly removed the original ad and replaced it with "There will be a meeting for all qualified railway vandals at Wimbledon on such-and-such a date".

Re the invitation to railway vandals to meet at Wimbledon.

It reminds me of the sixties when Mods and Rockers would shout “ Boxhill” to each other as they passed on Lambrettas and Triumphs . An invite to a rumble at a Surrey beauty spot. 

[Fair Oak Junction]

Can it be conclusively proved added detail is adding considerable costs, as opposed to the modern global economic factors which are causing prices to rise in all areas not just this hobby?

Because there are plenty of other hobbies where prices have increased considerably, but detail has not. Only the manufacturers themselves can really answer the question but I know which side of the argument I stand on having seen this happening in many places outside model railways.

Edit: You only have to look at prices being charged by certain manufacturers for toolings that are 10-20 years old at this point. There are far bigger factors at play.

Edited March 12 by Fair Oak Junction

[Captain Kernow]

11 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I would probably vote for passengers. Given these cost from 50p up to ten pounds and more per figure they add considerably to the cost of rolling stock, never mind the effort etc. I have just added some folk to my Kernow Railmotor and they definitely help but added £25 to the cost. I feel fairly sure that they could be built in at much lower cost, but then would we all want our rolling stock to have identical people?

I can't remember the issue number of that MRJ or the author of the article, but the colour 2-D printed passengers created a stunning effect in what were, if I recall correctly, some kind of suburban coaches.

 

If enough 2-D passengers were available for modellers to put in at random in their own coaches, then we would not have the unfortunate effect of everyone's excursion trains featuring the same passengers in the same seats in the same coaches (but probably not going to the same destinations, certainly not all at the same time...)

 

2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

When exhibiting Treneglos, the light did just catch the mirrors, and they were occasionally noticed by those watching. I didn't fit anything in to the guards compartment, not did I add luggage racks. Deffo would not have been seen. 

If the light catching the mirrors made them visible to a few folk, then I would concede that the effort was probably worth it.

 

2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

I do have some Maunsell coaches for Pencarrow in 7mm and will be doing the same detailing internally. 

But that's fine, it's 7mm and there's much more chance of people being able to discern details within.

 

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

My view therefore is that if our new breed of toy train producers want to push boundaries, then let them. We'll take whatever extra detail you want to chuck in.

I won't disagree, provided that the extra effort is worth it. I don't count flickering fireboxes in that, though. That's only marginally more irritating than diesel locos, where the red rear taillights still come on, even when the loco is running in the opposite direction and hauling a train. The driver would have received a telling off for that and it might even have confused some signalmen enough to warrant the implementation of certain Emergency Signalling Regulations...

 

2 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

What we don't want is the return of "Design Clever". 

 

We want "Detail, Detail, Detail........"

No, we don't want 'Design Clever' to make a come back, but neither do we (I) want so much detail that it habitually falls off in transit from the supplier to the customer, or is included 'just for the sake of it' and thus ends up being overscale (some - most - RTR lamp brackets fall into this category).

 

I don't want factory-added detail that falls off at first handling of the model by a human bean, either...

 

If I were World Oligarch, I would ban all detail that cannot be seen when the rolling stock is right way up, on the track. If you aspire to show all the gubbins under a wagon that cannot normally be seen, then perhaps you also aspire to derailments and other rail-bourn catastrophes, which show off the underside of said wagon. No railwayman aspires to that kind of accident!

 

Having mentioned lamp brackets, if Rapido or Accurascale are wondering what to wow us with next, how about scale sized lamp brackets, made of metal, which are securely fitted to the model and on to which the modeller can deposit the correct configuration of lamps for whatever train the loco is working? That would get my vote.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

Of course prices are going up and of course extra detail adds cost. I've no idea how much but if I could get an accurate coach with fewer extra details for say GBP 5 to 10 less I'd be happier.

[Fair Oak Junction]

3 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I can't remember the issue number of that MRJ or the author of the article, but the colour 2-D printed passengers created a stunning effect in what were, if I recall correctly, some kind of suburban coaches.

 

If enough 2-D passengers were available for modellers to put in at random in their own coaches, then we would not have the unfortunate effect of everyone's excursion trains featuring the same passengers in the same seats in the same coaches (but probably not going to the same destinations, certainly not all at the same time...)

 

Funnily enough I've been considering 2D passengers for my Liverpool & Manchester Railway project, as I don't want to add much weight to the trains and 1830s carriages are so small.

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

how about scale sized lamp brackets, made of metal, which are securely fitted to the model and on to which the modeller can deposit the correct configuration of lamps for whatever train the loco is working? That would get my vote.

Made of steel, on to which scale-sized lamps with embedded micromagnets could be fitted (I'm gradually trying to do this with my locos but it's a slow burn).

[TrevorP1]

31 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Can it be conclusively proved added detail is adding considerable costs, as opposed to the modern global economic factors which are causing prices to rise in all areas not just this hobby?

Because there are plenty of other hobbies where prices have increased considerably, but detail has not. Only the manufacturers themselves can really answer the question but I know which side of the argument I stand on having seen this happening in many places outside model railways.

Edit: You only have to look at prices being charged by certain manufacturers for toolings that are 10-20 years old at this point. There are far bigger factors at play.

The cost of everything to do with model making is increasing. North of a fiver for decent epoxy for instance. I recently purchased a small pot of fibre paste and a small bottle of matt medium and found myself almost £30 the poorer.