Adams442T Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Why do "collectors" collect working models that are made inaccurate in major details, in order to make them work for slightly less than 20%* of buyers? Surely displaying items in glass cabinets, with steam roller wheels a scale 7 inches too close together, big lumps of plastic on the ends to take unrealistic couplings, and that will never run, is a bit weird. If I collected models to put on display, I wouldn't be bothered about a motor and gears, especially if it blocked out daylight where the prototype had it, but would want correctly gauged scale wheels and accurate details at both ends, so it looked as much like the real thing as possible. * With a small percentage of P4 and EM modellers who have to go to great lengths to alter them! I don't think 'Collectors' are worried about such things. It is, I think, in the nature of the beast to be acquisitive just for the sake of being a ' completeist', either with everything that a manufacturer produces (lofts full of red boxes come to mind - I know I've seen some!) or 'themed' collections. Limitations on accuracy, either manufactured (lousy couplings) or self-imposed (putting up with 00 instead of P4/EM ing), or major flaws (IMHO the lack of daylight under the boiler) are, I guess, what differentiates modellers (who want to do something about it) from collectors in the final analysis. I have already decided that, wanting the LSWR version, I will not be buying the Oxford Rail offerings as the lack of daylight under the boiler is, for me, a major factor. Had this flaw been addressed I would have cheerfully purchased several, though rewheeling to EM/P4 seems to present some problems. As it is the OR LSWR version appears to be hitting the shops at about the same time as the predicted (yes, I know - crystal balls!) Hornby version. I've pre-ordered mine at only £12 differential to the lowest current Oxford LSWR price, and that's worth it to not start chopping mountings about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2015 Why do "collectors" collect working models that are made inaccurate in major details, in order to make them work for slightly less than 20%* of buyers? Surely displaying items in glass cabinets, with steam roller wheels a scale 7 inches too close together, big lumps of plastic on the ends to take unrealistic couplings, and that will never run, is a bit weird. If I collected models to put on display, I wouldn't be bothered about a motor and gears, especially if it blocked out daylight where the prototype had it, but would want correctly gauged scale wheels and accurate details at both ends, so it looked as much like the real thing as possible. * With a small percentage of P4 and EM modellers who have to go to great lengths to alter them! Collectors collect whatever they are collecting in order to form a set or a complete record of the marque (in model railway terms. I knew a chap - quite a while back - who collected Hornby railways stuff and he wanted, and bought as each item appeared on the market, an example of every single 'R' number be it a piece of track, a lineside item , loco or whatever plus all the variants with different colouring etc every. another chap I know collects Trix Twin in exactly the same way and he's clearly not alone as various wooden TTR items in original boxes used to go for good amounts in Ebay. The collecting hobby is a very different thing (which might explain why I have the same postcard view of certain locos, or trains, several times over purely because the backs of the cards are different from each other ). 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2015 After running in my radial I then started to paint the wheels black but for some reason JMRI decoder pro crashed and it took me a good hour to sort out as needed to rotate the wheels to get at the unpainted part under the splashes (yes I could have gone for a simple controller and just switch on but needed to get JMRI working again anyway). So tonight it will get weathered but cant decide how far to go as some photos taken in colour at Lyme Regis show the loco especially the tank sides to be very clean. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2015 [mode= ] Agree with Mike here. Collectors collect as they see fit and to each their own. While Adams Radials and most other model railway items are manufactured in order to be operated many never are. Likewise (and speaking from experience living with a collector of them) teapots and milk jugs are usually designed to be both attractive and functional yet many are collected and never used for their intended purpose. [/mode] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2015 The GBL series and its ilk are designed to be bought, collected, displayed. Only the brave and clever get them motorised, I suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2015 [mode= ] Agree with Mike here. Collectors collect as they see fit and to each their own. While Adams Radials and most other model railway items are manufactured in order to be operated many never are. Likewise (and speaking from experience living with a collector of them) teapots and milk jugs are usually designed to be both attractive and functional yet many are collected and never used for their intended purpose. [/mode] You want to see how many coffee pots we have and none of us drink coffee!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 When I was Editor of Steam World there was a reader who subscribed to two copies each month. He read one and kept the other pristine - never even opening the polybag it came in. Similarly I was told that Kitmaster kits lost value if you took the cellophane wrapper off. If you didn't, how did you know there was even a set of mouldings in the box? I must have ruined lots of Kitmasters just by building them! (CJL) 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 There was something on the BBC News website a few months back about Star Wars collectables. Apparently some of the very early figures were shipped to shops in an outer carton which just had 'Star Wars' written on it but no indication of which figure it was. Someone had managed to get hold of an item still in its outer box, but didn't know which one it was as some are rarer than others (even without the outer wrapper). This put him in the quandry of whether to unseal the outer wrapper to find out which figure it was. In the end the local teaching hospital X-rayed it for him! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2015 Collectors are a funny old part of the model train market. I think it is easy to joke about them and see collecting as an odd past time yet without the collector segment we'd probably see a lot less investment in new locomotive development and tooling in particular as it does seem that a significant part of production goes to collectors. So modellers and layout operators get a lot of benefit on the back of demand created by collectors. Equally, collectors gain from demand created by modellers, so there is a symbiotic relationship between modellers and collectors I think. That said, at times it does seem to get a bit silly to me, I remember the instant collectability craze bubble that Lima/RIKO inflated for a while by making everything "limited edition" and flooding the market with those limited editions. I knew a fellow who was determined to buy one of every Lima locomotive release, it got to the point he'd have needed a bigger house to fit all the things in. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Trouble with the "limited editions" is we never know how many they'd sell if it wasn't such a short production run. Maybe they'd sell more if they made more, especially if it meant the one-off costs could be spread over a bigger run, lowering the price. The whole Harry Patch run for example was so short between announcement and selling out that anyone who didn't have the money immediately to hand would have missed out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I'm interested to see the next Oxford loco. Is the Adams radial indicative of their long term market positioning (aimed at a lower price point with some compromises to reflect that) or were they feeling their way with this release and will take note of the criticisms to improve their next release? I think there is an opportunity for a company losing a little bit of the finery in return for a competitive price (a segment Hornby have served with their new Railroad tooling I think) but it is not really what most expected when this effort was announced. Perhaps their next release will move things up a notch. Personally I'd be more excited about a new manufacturer making models at a more accessible price than yet another manufacturer making high-end super-detailed models (yawn!). As Oxford's P.O. wagons are something like 1/3 less in price than the equivalent Hornby and Bachmann offerings, I think the indications always were that the Oxford loco would be a lower price than Hornby. That's not to say some things couldn't perhaps have been done better for the same price, but overall from the videos and seeing one on the stand at Warley, I think it's an acceptable model. As regards build quality/QC I seem to remember some of the first China-made Hornby locos had pretty poor builed quality/QC - a club colleague of mine had to return a loco to the shop because the non-displayed side of the tender had a soldering iron burn on it - and if I remember correctly the stockist then discovered he had several like that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 ...Similarly I was told that Kitmaster kits lost value if you took the cellophane wrapper off. ... You might want to ask Brian Kirby whether he still has his complete set of cellophane-wrapped Kitmaster Blue Pullman kits. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The original source of this discussion about collectors struck a chord with me as I am a member of the Oxford Diecast Collectors Facebook Group where the members display Oxford models they have converted, repainted, motorised, illuminated and set in realistic dioramas usually without the anachronisms involving road vehicles seen often on exhibition model railway layouts. Seems that members will be running their Oxford locos and stock too. Where would the pre-WW2 PO wagon trade be without collectors? We should not get too worried about layout owners who chose to display their collection in a train behind a Class 70 diesel. They are just having fun. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 That's not to say some things couldn't perhaps have been done better for the same price, but overall from the videos and seeing one on the stand at Warley, I think it's an acceptable model. I agree with both those points. I have one and I rather like it. My main worry was that a novice locomotive maker would not produce a good runner. In that respect, it is very good, once the bogie has been trimmed. I hope Oxford takes note of the shortcomings and corrects them in future models. The motor frame showing underneath the boiler might be more difficult to correct and is likely to be a lot more visible on the green version. On the other hand, If Hornby leaves the green wheels in unpainted plastic, is it going to be worth spending extra to get a model with a different jarring feature? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Has anyone run one on C+L hand built track, do's it's flanges hit the chairs? . As i have on order the early crest one. Edited December 8, 2015 by darren01 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The people who have posted in the Oxford Diecast Facebook site have been impressed with the Adams Radial so it looks like our hobby will be receiving some new recruits from model vehicle collectors. This is where unintended consequences may kick in. Oxford Rail have unintentionally advertised the joys of model railway to their model vehicle collecting customers: some of whom may not have realised just what is available from a very large choice of constant scale models. 99.9%+ of which are made by other businesses... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) This is where unintended consequences may kick in. Oxford Rail have unintentionally advertised the joys of model railway to their model vehicle collecting customers: some of whom may not have realised just what is available from a very large choice of constant scale models. 99.9%+ of which are made by other businesses... Surely they are not as naive as some RMWeb contributors might believe. Everyone knows all trains are made by Hornby, and all diecast cars by Corgi, all plastic kits by Airfix, and all slot racing cars by Scalextric, well at least according to a man in Margate. Edited December 8, 2015 by mikeharvey22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Surely they are not as naive as some RMWeb contributors might believe. Everyone knows all trains are made by Hornby, and all diecast cars by Corgi, all plastic kits by Airfix, and all slot racing cars by Scalextric, well at least according to a man in Margate. Goodness me ! You'll be telling me next , that all vacuum cleaners are made by Hoover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 But not all Hoovers are vacuum cleaners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 But not all Hoovers are vacuum cleaners. Wha........??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2015 lofty1966, on 08 Dec 2015 - 19:54, said:Wha........??? Think 50. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Do you honestly think the manufacturers care what you do with locos once you bought them? If I bought a P2 and used it as a bath toy that wouldn't bother them at all. Its probably better selling to collectors. They don't phone to say it doesn't work! Makes you wonder how many duds are out there in "as new mint condition" I wish Oxford all the best with the radial. More manufacturers can only mean more variety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 On the other hand, If Hornby leaves the green wheels in unpainted plastic, is it going to be worth spending extra to get a model with a different jarring feature? If that is the case at least the wheels can be weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 There are collectors and there are collectors. I think those who buy and never take the thing out the box must very few. Indeed, you would be hard pressed with one of Oxford's proving the thing never came out the box. It is not like they have some seal to be broken... Others probably take them out the box for display. It almost a dead cert that most will test the thing to ensure it runs and runs perfectly. They will check over to ensure perfect manufacture. If a model has a flaw they will return it. Then you have model railway enthusiasts, these will have a collection, but are not collectors in a true sense. They will run their models but not heavily enough to wear them out. Then we move on to railway modellers.... Now many people will probably fall between these grades and are probably a mix of all in differing amounts. None the less, even if 80% are not run, that figure probably means they are not run often enough to cause them to wear out within a 20 year life span. In my experience, people who are purely vehicle or military collectors, don't always suddenly take model railways on the fly. What I mean is, I doubt Oxfordrails Adams has suddenly caused a serge of new model railway enthusiasts, it far more likely that they are people who do Diecast cars and model trains. (I do military vehicles and trains, but cannot see anything in buses or cars). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Wha........??? It's a bit like, "All sparrows are birds, but not all birds are sparrows." Honest.......................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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