Hornby 2022 - Diesel/Electric Range

[Geep7]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

on the other hand, people willing to spend could be the backbone of the economy ?

 

Afterall the RRP of a new Bachmann 90 (£229) is higher than the Roco Vectron (239 Euro / £200), and if people didn't buy them, then companies wouldn't make them, and that means costs rise on those models that they do make ?

 

(the 90 is of course a respray and the painting price is a premium on-top of the purchase price).

 

 

which is maybe why Roco has risked to make one, but Bachmann has not, as yet..maybe their economy has more backbone, less trade barriers etc, making it cheaper to produce ?

(It has sold out now at Roco).

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/245341-0-0-0-0-0-0-002002-0/products.html

 

It could also explain Hornbys price rises (and anecdotal suggestions of less supply in 2022).

 

 

The Roco Vectron was supplied from Germany, EU tax free, but UK duty applied, it arrived at the honoured original 2021 discount price, something UK retailers are prevented from doing by some UK manufacturers, it has been suggested.
 

It cost £162 all in with taxes and fedex’s fee… avout the same as Accurascales class 55.

 

The Class 90 is a Rainbow Railways respray, £280.
https://rainbowrailways.co.uk/product/Bachmann-class-90-db-cargo-90039-backbone-livery/

First release class 90’s can be sourced circa £140-180. Next release class 90’s are from £188.

 

 

Roco also aren't so reliant on China as other Manufacturers, with manufacturing being carried out in Vietnam and Austria (this being a stipulation of them being an Austrian company I believe) as well as China (I think they have some made in China), which might explain the lower price.

[ruggedpeak]

Also bear in mind that there are well over 500 Vectrons in service across Europe so the scope for recovering tooling costs is much greater for Roco than for Bachmann and the 90's, even allowing for livery variations. There seem to be 20 Vectron variants in the current Roco range (DC only, that doesn't include the DCC etc versions)

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/productsearch/0-vectron-0_1000_0-1-0-0-0-0_601-1/products.html

 

The Backbone Vectron is sold out at Roco.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Also bear in mind that there are well over 500 Vectrons in service across Europe so the scope for recovering tooling costs is much greater for Roco than for Bachmann and the 90's, even allowing for livery variations. There seem to be 20 Vectron variants in the current Roco range (DC only, that doesn't include the DCC etc versions)

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/productsearch/0-vectron-0_1000_0-1-0-0-0-0_601-1/products.html

 

The Backbone Vectron is sold out at Roco.

Roco is not alone with the Vectron however…

 

Piko, Marklin/Trix, LSModels, Jagerndorfer all have very uptodate models of Vectron…all at high detail levels.

 

I count 205 (AC/DC/Sound) versions (70 different liveries/ numbers) available to buy or reserve on Modelbahnshoplippes website tonight… that ignores those already sold out, which isnt a small number either.

 

The German market is very much like the sweetshop market when it comes to choice.

We only have 3x class 66 models in the UK, and one of them is nearly 25 years old, the other is nearly 15 years old. Vectron design itself is only 10 years old.. modern image definitely sells on the continent.

We got 32 versions from Hattons, they ended up discounted. A similar number of budget ones from Hornby, largely sold out… 

 

Now think about those factories in China making them, how much space they have when Europes tooling up an arms race like that.. then ask why the UK market may be less desirable than it used to be…and why prices for our niche items go up.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

Sounds like there might be more Drax wagons being made, I have had confirmation of my full pre order being able to be fulfilled

[ruggedpeak]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Roco is not alone with the Vectron however…

 

Piko, Marklin/Trix, LSModels, Jagerndorfer all have very uptodate models of Vectron…

 

I count 205 versions (70 different liveries/ numbers) available to buy or reserve on Modelbahnshoplipoes website tonight… that ignores those already sold out.

 

The German market is very much like the sweetshop market when it comes to choice.

We only have 3x class 66 models in the UK, and one of them is nearly 25 years old, the other is nearly 15 years old.

 

Now think about those factories in China making them, how much space they have when Europes tooling up an arms race like that.. then ask why the UK market may be less desirable than it used to be…and why prices for our niche items go up.

 

But equally Vectrons are in use in about 20 countries including Germany, Poland. Turkey, Switzerland, Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and more. So the market can probably sustain 70 liveries.

 

I agree it does raises questions about the UK v. European model markets and possibly OO v HO. If UK mainstream was HO instead of OO would we see the same levels of choice and competition?

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

But equally Vectrons are in use in about 20 countries including Germany, Poland. Turkey, Switzerland, Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and more. So the market can probably sustain 70 liveries.

doesnt change the production economics for us in the UK though, our comissioners are fighting for the same factory floor space in China…

 

18 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

I agree it does raises questions about the UK v. European model markets and possibly OO v HO. If UK mainstream was HO instead of OO would we see the same levels of choice and competition?

Not much. UK stuff doesn't roll around Europe.

 

66 is the obvious market, and Heljan, ESU, Trix and Mehano have all had a dabble… theres more HO class 66 manufacturers than UK OO manufacturers. Though quality varies. Its interesting to note despite that interest, UK liveries dont feature in the HO ranges, beyond those native on the continent (ECR for instance).

 

tbh I think the class 66 story in Europe will come slowly to an end, and most will end up here, as the skills/maintenance regime is strongest here. Being outside the EU for maintenance reliance makes less difference be it US or UK.. A bit like how Dan Air ended up with the global supply of Comets.

 

Thats where the story ends.

After that its peripheral… s100, s160, class 08 (ish) - all Roco, Jouef Eurostar after that its going dog old.

A class 58 might get niche interest, as maybe a class 92, but it’ll be bold boots to do those. I’d favour someone like Artitec to do a Dutch EM2 maybe ?

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

14 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

But equally Vectrons are in use in about 20 countries including Germany, Poland. Turkey, Switzerland, Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and more. So the market can probably sustain 70 liveries.

 

I agree it does raises questions about the UK v. European model markets and possibly OO v HO. If UK mainstream was HO instead of OO would we see the same levels of choice and competition?

 

I'd doubt the UK scale being HO would make any difference, there must be lots more inter-working between different railways in Europe than there is between Europe and the UK. Much of the UK railways must be fairly isolated from Europe from the smaller loading gauge here essentially only allowing purpose built vehicles through from Europe

[eldomtom2]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

After that its peripheral… s100, s160, class 08 (ish) - all Roco, Jouef Eurostar after that its going dog old.

No-one's made a HO ROD 2-8-0 yet, and they got around...

[SamThomas]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

66 is the obvious market, and Heljan, ESU, Trix and Mehano have all had a dabble… theres more HO class 66 manufacturers than UK OO manufacturers. Though quality varies. Its interesting to note despite that interest, UK liveries dont feature in the HO ranges, beyond those native on the continent (ECR for instance).

IIRC one of the "European" HO manufactures produced a 66 in Crossrail livery.

[Waverley47708]

Dropped Hornby an email about the black windows surrounds on the NSE 50 and the black roof on the Railroad intercity HST.  They have confirmed there will be no black window surrounds on the 50 and are aware of the black roof query on the HST.  I am sure both will be resolved before they come out.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Waverley47708 said:

They have confirmed there will be no black window surrounds on the 50 and are aware of the black roof query on the HST.  I am sure both will be resolved before they come out.

 

I seem to recall the blue/grey ones having similar dodgy artwork that was ok in the actual model.

 

https://railwaymodels.uk/product-Hornby-r3608-br-intercity-class-43-hst-pack-power-car-and-

dummy-power-car-w43002-and-w43003-era-7#.YegeOPnP0uU

[Waverley47708]

3 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

I seem to recall the blue/grey ones having similar dodgy artwork that was ok in the actual model.

 

https://railwaymodels.uk/product-Hornby-r3608-br-intercity-class-43-hst-pack-power-car-and-

dummy-power-car-w43002-and-w43003-era-7#.YegeOPnP0uU

 

Sort of.

 

Yes they too had black roof in the artwork but came put with yellow roofs, but the livery application wasn't great, there was a mm or so line of yellow paint which was too thick along the top of the yellow around the body just below the blue.  The Intercity 125 was a bit too low, that said it was only obvious if you tried to add a name under the Intercity 125 logo

 

I got chassis and motors and stuck with the Lima bodies.  As a result I have some Railroad GWR bodies to sell at some point.  The improved motor over the old pancake are excellent.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Waverley47708

[brushman47544]

On 18/01/2022 at 17:30, ruggedpeak said:

I agree it does raises questions about the UK v. European model markets and possibly OO v HO. If UK mainstream was HO instead of OO would we see the same levels of choice and competition?

In general I would say if the UK was HO it would make little or no difference because the trains are different due to our smaller loading gauge. That being said, some individual trains that saw or see service in both Europe and Britain might have been produced by the European brands in UK liveries if we were HO, the most obvious being the Class 66, but with Classes 56, 86, 87 and 92 in with a chance too.

[adb968008]

If someone did produce HO, then there would definitely be no need for TT.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by adb968008

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

In general I would say if the UK was HO it would make little or no difference because the trains are different due to our smaller loading gauge. That being said, some individual trains that saw or see service in both Europe and Britain might have been produced by the European brands in UK liveries if we were HO, the most obvious being the Class 66, but with Classes 56, 86, 87 and 92 in with a chance too.

Not forgetting the 08.

[Hilux5972]

On 18/01/2022 at 15:28, Purnu said:

Apologies if this question has already been asked.

 

I’m interested in the Rail Adventure power car set but I’d like to know if they have the top marker light modification? 
 

Are there any other images available (other than the 2 side on) to confirm either way? 
 

Kind regards.

The Pullman ones are going to have a working headlight up top so good chance the Adventure ones will do as well. 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

The Pullman ones are going to have a working headlight up top so good chance the Adventure ones will do as well. 

But will the Adventure ones have Couplings on the nose end ?

Edited January 20, 2022 by adb968008

[ellocoloco]

On 18/01/2022 at 17:30, ruggedpeak said:

If UK mainstream was HO instead of OO would we see the same levels of choice and competition?

I would suspect that if mainstream British producers manufactured in HO, many more US, Continental and other modellers would exercise Rule #1 to have a British model on their railway. I am thinking particularly of large steam which is a lot more colourful than its mostly black European and US counterparts and has a certain celebrity about it. Much in the way many non UP, or even non US modellers manage to have a Big Boy 'on shed' I would expect plenty to have a Scottie or Duchess lurking away to take its turn on the Orient Express. 

 

Being a OO market deprives GB outline producers of many potential incidental sales to HO scale modellers in other countries.

 

 

 

 

[spamcan61]

9 minutes ago, ellocoloco said:

I would suspect that if mainstream British producers manufactured in HO, many more US, Continental and other modellers would exercise Rule #1 to have a British model on their railway. I am thinking particularly of large steam which is a lot more colourful than its mostly black European and US counterparts and has a certain celebrity about it. Much in the way many non UP, or even non US modellers manage to have a Big Boy 'on shed' I would expect plenty to have a Scottie or Duchess lurking away to take its turn on the Orient Express. 

 

Being a OO market deprives GB outline producers of many potential incidental sales to HO scale modellers in other countries.

 

 

I've never understood this logic: if they're exercising rule 1 anyway, why does HO vs. OO make any difference? Particularly as UK prototypes tend to be small anyway. The fact that literally nobody has made a success of this strategy in the last 50 years suggests it won't work.

[G-BOAF]

33 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I've never understood this logic: if they're exercising rule 1 anyway, why does HO vs. OO make any difference? Particularly as UK prototypes tend to be small anyway. The fact that literally nobody has made a success of this strategy in the last 50 years suggests it won't work.

 

For many overseas modellers, depending on country and how well defined modelling eras and locations are, UK stock could have a prototypical place somewhere on a layout.

 

Going OT....

 

When I was based part time overseas a few years ago, my very small collection of locos which came with me had one thing in common, they were all representatives of types that had worked/visited or were based, at some point, overseas (defined as anywhere outside Mainland UK/IOW). This was my 'rule 0.5'. I think the only ones I actually took out were an SR USA and a Castle (after Pendennis in Australia).

 

However I could also choose from an A4 or two (after 60008 and 4489), an A3 (Scotsman in US and Australia), King (after 6000 USA visit), Schools (after Repton's period in N.America), Terrier (after Waddon), a J94 (numerous), A Duchess (after Hamilton's US visit), a J36 (several during the war), an 8F (war use and some preserved overseas) a P (323 Bluebell has visited a heritage line in the Netherlands), a 47 (there is currently one working in E.Europe), Class 67 (built and tested in Spain), Class 68 (ditto), Class 87 (several working in Europe), Class 37 (infrastructure trains in Spain)

 

And several locos I don't yet have models of but would fit my 'rule 0.5, including an M7, Class 56 (some were built in Romania, and recent Floyd use), a Class 66 (both built and many worked overseas), Class 20 (a few spent time in France), Class 86 (E. Europe), Class 58 (Europe infrastructure work) and a Class 92. Also as exhibits overseas, the Class 89, a 90 and a 91, along with a Class 156. Not on my list as didn't survive, but Kestrel would also fit here.

 

Rolling stock is also relatively plentiful some Gresley full brakes went to USA with Scotsman, as did a BCK. Some Mk2Cs (not yet modelled) operated in Israel, along with a few Mk1s that were exported there for use as static catering. The now repatriated SR GLV and Devon Belle Observation car spent many year in the USA. Some MkIII sleepers worked in Europe. A couple of 1927 Pullmans went overseas with Scotsman (now repatriated), and VSOE Ibis also worked in Italy earlier in its life. As far as I know, there are no UK outline non-Pullman catering vehicles have been preserved, exported, or visited overseas, but will be happy to be proven wrong (I specify UK outline as opposed to UK built for overseas use)...

 

In sum, plenty of prototypical justification for UK vehicles used on overseas layouts :-P

 

[SamThomas]

Personally I am of the view that if mainstream UK was HO then we would see a wider choice from the European's.

Rule 1 would then increase sales of UK stock to run on "EuroLayouts" - OO UK looks silly alongside HO Euro.

 

Flesichmann & Lima tried HO/UK & failed - it would be a very brave manufacture to ditch OO & produce HO/UK.

 

I doubt if UK will ever adopt HO, the only only time it could have happend is when Hornby had most of the market to themselves & that moment has long gone.

[GordonC]

24 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Personally I am of the view that if mainstream UK was HO then we would see a wider choice from the European's.

Rule 1 would then increase sales of UK stock to run on "EuroLayouts" - OO UK looks silly alongside HO Euro.

 

Flesichmann & Lima tried HO/UK & failed - it would be a very brave manufacture to ditch OO & produce HO/UK.

 

I doubt if UK will ever adopt HO, the only only time it could have happend is when Hornby had most of the market to themselves & that moment has long gone.

 

I dont think we will ever see many HO models of UK prototypes, if anything I think its probably too close in scale to 00 when you consider all the products that are available in 00 gauge there would be minimal benefit in changing to HO. Its a whole lot easier to rewheel 00 models to EM or P4 if you want more accurate track/scale. Ironically, something like 3mm scale is a better compromise between N and 00 gauges, but again it'd be a brave manufacturer to tool up models for that.

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I doubt if UK will ever adopt HO, the only only time it could have happend is when Hornby had most of the market to themselves & that moment has long gone.

 

I still think it's a great shame that when Airfix and Mainline entered the RTR market in the 70s they did not go for HO, but as you say it's too late now ! 

 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

I still think it's a great shame that when Airfix and Mainline entered the RTR market in the 70s they did not go for HO, but as you say it's too late now ! 

 

 

At the time Lima were going HO to OO around 76/77.    Fleischmann had the Royal Scot and Warship  but i dont think were succesfull . So either would have been very brave to go HO

Edited January 20, 2022 by Legend

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

 

At the time Lima were going HO to OO around 76/77.    Fleischmann had the Royal Scot and Warship  but i dont think were succesfull . So either would have been very brave to go HO

Don't remeber Fleischmann producing a Royal Scot, but they did do some nice Bullied Coaches & were rumoured to have a Bullied Pacific in the pipeline. Rivarossi & Trix produced some models in a sort of "between 3.5 & 4.0mm/foot" scale.