Dia. AA20 'Toad' Brake Van

[gwrrob]

Another view taken from above, as seen on Facebook.

 

[Adrock]

On 28/03/2023 at 14:50, gwrrob said:

Another view taken from above, as seen on Facebook.

 

Absolutely outstanding, I love the interior detail and also the colours. It really bring these characterful wagons to life and probably pushes the bar higher then ever. 

[cctransuk]

43 minutes ago, Adrock said:

Absolutely outstanding, I love the interior detail and also the colours. It really bring these characterful wagons to life and probably pushes the bar higher then ever. 

 

I can't deny that this is superb work - but I do question 'Why'.

 

I can tell if a 4mm. scale brakevan partition is not glazed, but I defy anyone, at normal viewing distance, to say if a stove is fitted - let alone if the interior decor is correct.  (Or will we have interior lighting to show it off)?

 

All this interior detail indicates a more complex tool - and that comes at a significant cost when the prices of models are rapidly increasing.

 

Where will we draw the line - working brakes, anyone?

 

CJI.

[rapidoandy]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can't deny that this is superb work - but I do question 'Why'.

 

I can tell if a 4mm. scale brakevan partition is not glazed, but I defy anyone, at normal viewing distance, to say if a stove is fitted - let alone if the interior decor is correct.  (Or will we have interior lighting to show it off)?

 

All this interior detail indicates a more complex tool - and that comes at a significant cost when the prices of models are rapidly increasing.

 

Where will we draw the line - working brakes, anyone?

 

CJI.

Actually - with all due respect that’s not true. It’s not a considerable expense.

 

Clever design makes it possible. All the extra parts only require simple two face moulds and all of the bits that were ‘extra’ in some way were fitted onto moulds that we already needed. If making the interior required a whole new mould then yes it gets expensive / but this (not the SECR brake required it). There is a small amount in the assembly but the actual extra cost per unit is fairly negligible over the run. We checked. 
 

Even at RRP the price is similar to other brakes that have been released around the same time - even with all these extra bits.

 

Andy

[RapidoCorbs]

My request for an electromagenetically-operated working brake van got turned down :( 

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Actually - with all due respect that’s not true. It’s not a considerable expense.

 

Clever design makes it possible. All the extra parts only require simple two face moulds and all of the bits that were ‘extra’ in some way were fitted onto moulds that we already needed. If making the interior required a whole new mould then yes it gets expensive / but this (not the SECR brake required it). There is a small amount in the assembly but the actual extra cost per unit is fairly negligible over the run. We checked. 
 

Even at RRP the price is similar to other brakes that have been released around the same time - even with all these extra bits.

 

Andy

 

Assurance accepted - but it still doesn't answer 'Why'.

 

However 'fairly negligible' the additional cost, I fail to see the point.

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

My request for an electromagenetically-operated working brake van got turned down :( 

There's an interestng idea.  You could possible do something akin to a magnetic track brake although it would obviously be a  friction brake for use on other than steel track so the principle is probably doable using DDC control.  Magnetic track brakes are fiendish things - the standard test for them on DB was (is?) that they must bring a passenger vehicle to a stand within a stated distance from a speed of = 60mph without the application of any other sort of brake.  The test is carried out using a slip coupling with the vehicle left to itself once slipped.

 

However I do wonder firstly about the need for a friction based version on a model railway (virtually non-existent), secondly about the reliability as it could be most embarrassing if it applied at the wrong moment, and finally about the fact that it really did work as a friction brake it would probably pull any light wagons off the track on curves.   (But maybe the idea could be used on a DCC fitted Slip Coach?

[RapidoLinny]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Assurance accepted - but it still doesn't answer 'Why'.

 

However 'fairly negligible' the additional cost, I fail to see the point.

 

CJI.

For much the same reason that model non-corridor carriages get their interiors modelled - the end windows on the Toad are about the same size as quarter lights on a carriage. On the Toad, the interior, being painted cream above the waist on the prototype, is (if anything) more visible than that in a carriage.

[The Outcast]

54 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There's an interestng idea.  You could possible do something akin to a magnetic track brake although it would obviously be a  friction brake for use on other than steel track so the principle is probably doable using DDC control.  Magnetic track brakes are fiendish things - the standard test for them on DB was (is?) that they must bring a passenger vehicle to a stand within a stated distance from a speed of = 60mph without the application of any other sort of brake.  The test is carried out using a slip coupling with the vehicle left to itself once slipped.

 

However I do wonder firstly about the need for a friction based version on a model railway (virtually non-existent), secondly about the reliability as it could be most embarrassing if it applied at the wrong moment, and finally about the fact that it really did work as a friction brake it would probably pull any light wagons off the track on curves.   (But maybe the idea could be used on a DCC fitted Slip Coach?

I'd honestly love to see a manufacturer tackle doing a slip coach, that'd be super fun. 

 

Also, liking the look of this brake vans - those interior details look very high quality. Though, as the sole fan of factory weathering, will that be available on any of these models?

[The Johnster]

Vote from me for interior detail on brake vans; these were my office back in the 70s.  I’d also suggest that the cabin doors might be modelled open, which was common on warm days and when the trains were stopped or running slowly even on cold days; those stoves chucked out a lot of heat!  The guard needs to go out on the balcony quite frequently to attend to lamps, give handsignals, apply the brake on GW Toads, and wave at attractive young ladies on station platforms, and open doors, latched back to stop them slamming shut, would give a better view of the office furnishings.  
 

On 05/04/2023 at 20:54, cctransuk said:

 

I can't deny that this is superb work - but I do question 'Why'.

 

I can tell if a 4mm. scale brakevan partition is not glazed, but I defy anyone, at normal viewing distance, to say if a stove is fitted - let alone if the interior decor is correct.  (Or will we have interior lighting to show it off)?

 

All this interior detail indicates a more complex tool - and that comes at a significant cost when the prices of models are rapidly increasing.

 

Where will we draw the line - working brakes, anyone?

 

CJI.

Brake vans do not have lighting (other than the guard’s handlamp), but a glow from a stove with the door open would be acceptable (as would smoke from the stovepipe).  GW Toads had opening side windows and centre panels in the cabin end, through which the guard could access the tail lamp, and side lamps on some earlier designs with additional side lamp brackets at that end.   And, as an ex-guard, I’d love to see working brakes to keep couplings tight!

[The Johnster]

On 04/11/2022 at 18:46, Skinnylinny said:

I can confirm the side lamp irons aren't moulded to the body, they're separately-fitted parts. However, I don't know off-hand what dimensions of lamp iron Modelu lamps are manufacturer to accept, so I can't guarantee that they'll fit over the iron I'm afraid!

Linny
CAD engineer, Rapido Trains UK

Modelu side lamps fit happily on Oxford’s separate Toad side lamp brackets, and should do so on your brackets as well, Linny.  They have slots in the bottoms, aligned front-to-back, one on each side of the lamp to enable fitting either side, but you have to put up with them being slightly off-vertical, not completely unprototypical on some vans especially where poor riding sets up a rocking motion and loosens the bolts (and everything else, including the guard’s teeth, and reason…).

Edited April 11, 2023 by The Johnster

[Modelu Chris]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Modelu side lamps fit happily on Oxford’s separate Toad side lamp brackets, and should do so on your brackets as well, Linny.  They have slots in the bottoms, aligned front-to-back, one on each side of the lamp to enable fitting either side, but you have to put up with them being slightly off-vertical, not completely unprototypical on some vans especially where poor riding sets up a rocking motion and loosens the bolts (and everything else, including the guard’s teeth, and reason…).

 

I have one of these on order personally, so will hopefully be able to create a perfect fit!

[gwrrob]

My retailer today advised me these will be available the middle of next month.

[rembrow]

Update from Rails, who advise they are expected within the next few days. 

[rprodgers]

Arrived with Rapido, email received requesting payment!

[Jon Harbour]

E-mail received from Hattons as well! Incoming!

[gwrrob]

Seen on Facebook.

 

[sjrixon]

Ooohhh.. They are coming. 

[dcordingley]

There's obviously a good deal of detailed knowledge about Toads on this thread, so I wonder if I might pose a question which has been exercising people on another forum. There is a view that Toads were never fitted with piped brakes, and in consequence were always painted in "unfitted" grey in BR days. Others state that at least some Toads were retrofitted with pipes in the BR era, and therefore appeared in "fitted" bauxite livery. I've seen photographic evidence of at least a couple in bauxite, but I wonder if there was a difference in "fitting" through pipes and/or vacuum brakes. Can anyone shed any light? 

 

David C.    

[cctransuk]

11 hours ago, dcordingley said:

There's obviously a good deal of detailed knowledge about Toads on this thread, so I wonder if I might pose a question which has been exercising people on another forum. There is a view that Toads were never fitted with piped brakes, and in consequence were always painted in "unfitted" grey in BR days. Others state that at least some Toads were retrofitted with pipes in the BR era, and therefore appeared in "fitted" bauxite livery. I've seen photographic evidence of at least a couple in bauxite, but I wonder if there was a difference in "fitting" through pipes and/or vacuum brakes. Can anyone shed any light? 

 

David C.    

 

I can't give chapter and verse, but I definitely saw WR TOADs in bauxite.

 

As to whether they were fitted or just piped, I could not say - but I'd guess that they had a means of activating the vacuum brakes.

 

No doubt the 'Bible' would answer the question, but I'm too busy at present to look into the matter.

 

CJI.

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can't give chapter and verse, but I definitely saw WR TOADs in bauxite.

 

As to whether they were fitted or just piped, I could not say - but I'd guess that they had a means of activating the vacuum brakes.

 

No doubt the 'Bible' would answer the question, but I'm too busy at present to look into the matter.

 

CJI.

 

CJI.

Some if them were definitely fitted - rather noticeable when it said on the side 'London Division  For Use as Fitted Head' Only .   They were a regular on the Acton - Slough trip in 1966 and I doubt they were modified after they were banned from traffic use as brakevans during the previous year.

 

Any piped ones would in any case have had a brake pressure gauge and a setter valve.  And yes - there were some in bauxite and not just tthe ones used as fitted head in 1966.

[Jenny Emily]

Very impressed! 

[Pteremy]

From a quick look at Atkins, Baird & Tourett I can't see any reference to conversions. But there was a specific diagram - AA21 - under which 100 Vacuum fitted vehicles were built in 1939/40, financed by the government at the outset of WWII (AB&T p478)

[Captain Kernow]

On 06/04/2023 at 13:33, RapidoLinny said:

For much the same reason that model non-corridor carriages get their interiors modelled - the end windows on the Toad are about the same size as quarter lights on a carriage. On the Toad, the interior, being painted cream above the waist on the prototype, is (if anything) more visible than that in a carriage.

But generally, non-corridor coaches have windows opposite each other and it's relatively easy to see through, plus carriage windows were normally kept clean, for obvious reasons.

 

End windows of brake vans were subject to much less cleaning and this would make it harder to see what's inside a 4mm model. I simply can't see any interior space in any of my existing Bachmann and Hornby Toads and I agree with John Isherwood here, why bother? I accept it may not cost any more to produce it like this, but again, why bother?

 

The exterior detail looks lovely, though and that's reason enough for me to get one.

 

[tomparryharry]

19 hours ago, dcordingley said:

There's obviously a good deal of detailed knowledge about Toads on this thread, so I wonder if I might pose a question which has been exercising people on another forum. There is a view that Toads were never fitted with piped brakes, and in consequence were always painted in "unfitted" grey in BR days. Others state that at least some Toads were retrofitted with pipes in the BR era, and therefore appeared in "fitted" bauxite livery. I've seen photographic evidence of at least a couple in bauxite, but I wonder if there was a difference in "fitting" through pipes and/or vacuum brakes. Can anyone shed any light? 

 

David C.    

Some vacuum fitted vans went over to departmental use, and as such, were repainted drab olive.  Local conversions were very much 'ad hoc' in nature, and depended upon what department (or payment/cost centre). Remember that at about 30 years, stock became superannuated for accountancy purposes.