Dia. AA20 'Toad' Brake Van

[tomparryharry]

I haven't seen one in the flesh:-Yet.  So far, it's looking very good. 

 

Just observations... Coat hangers on the sander rail, some with a Mackintosh.  Kettle on the stove (these were blessed heavy, with a spigot on the bottom). Certain jobs had an upholstered seat. Fag-ash & cinders in the stove baseplate, water jack in the corner, and an ex WW2 gas mask bag, suspended by a bit of signal wire...

 

A lot of them were clean; some were not. Will I buy one? Silly question!

[gwrrob]

4 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

Very impressed! 

 

Are you going to do a review video @Jenny Emily

[Jenny Emily]

5 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

Are you going to do a review video @Jenny Emily

Yes. Filming at the moment to include the van and the Loriet. 

[Neal Ball]

14 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

……. why bother? I accept it may not cost any more to produce it like this, but again, why bother?

 

…..

 

Clearly, because they can! 
 

It’s that level of detail that sets them apart and makes people talk about Rapido. 
 

Plus of course that level of detail is the standard they set in the US and obviously they want to do the same here.

 

Mine will be winging its way to Henley-on-Thames shortly….. hoping it doesn’t get stuck in customs.

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Clearly, because they can! 
 

It’s that level of detail that sets them apart and makes people talk about Rapido. 
 

Plus of course that level of detail is the standard they set in the US and obviously they want to do the same here.

Indeed. Perhaps that's also one of the reasons for their decision to disperse the motor and gearbox mechanisms throughout a steam loco body, making replacement of the chassis alone almost impossible for those of us who wish to convert to EM or P4. Apparently this method is also widespread in the rest of the world (where the vast majority model in HO, rather that 4mm, so don't need to change the gauge).

 

I still don't get it, but I will still get one.

 

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

End windows of brake vans were subject to much less cleaning and this would make it harder to see what's inside a 4mm model.

Prior to the 1969 single manning agreements, after which guards booked on duty at loco depots instead of goods yards (so for the entire revenue service period of GW toads), these windows and the interiors of the vans in general were kept very clean; don’t forget the windows were the only source of light in what was a rather gloomy cabin!   Some yards (notably Radyr and Llantrisant in my experience in the 70s) kept the traditional standards up for longer.  
 

I’ve put stoves and stove pipes in my Hornby and Oxford toads, because these can be seen easily from outside the vans.  One of my Oxfords has the end windows open, and all have the interiors painted.  Inside detail makes a difference; not essential, perhaps, but desirable. 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

Very impressed! 

You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off, Jenny!

[The Johnster]

Brake vans in general were never fitted, having a fully functioning sentient (arguably) brake operating system aboard when in use, but those used on fully fitted trains were vacuum piped, and had vacuum gauges and a ‘brake setter’ (air inlet valve on a standpipe) by which the fully functioning sentient brake operating system could apply the train brakes if he needed to.  Such vans were painted in the BR bauxite livery, and I can certainly remember seeing GW toads in this livery.  
 

Not that obvious to a lineside or platform end observer, but the actual pipes were painted red on a fitted vehicle and white on a piped only vehicle. 
 

Mike’s fitted head toads are a slightly different proposition, not being used as brake vans in revenue service, and presumably retro-fitted with vacuum cylinders and working brakes.  These were a London Area thing and I was not familiar with them. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[Going2theDogs]

Hi All,

Here is the latest Rapido model of the GWR Toad brake van in ‘Engineers yellow’. 

It is TOPs code ZXO & numbered No. DW17244.

 

The Toad brake van was produced by GWR up until the 1950’s and this particular variant (Dia AA20) was introduced in 1934, many of these lasting into preservation.

In 00 gauge, other manufacturers have tackled this subject before but this latest incarnation boasts several ‘top notch’ features including:

 

Fully glazed model.

Detailed interior.

Disc wheels.

NEM coupling pockets.

 

This brake van also has a detachable roof enabling further enhancing inside the cabin of the wagon if the purchaser so desires. The method attaching the roof is via 4 small magnets. It is a neat arrangement.

 

Looking at Paul Bartlett’s excellent site shows this Toad was still in active service in 1988.

 

This model would be ideal at the end of an engineering train or parked up in a siding. All that is left to do is some tasteful weathering to tone down the bright paintwork.

 

Highly recommended.

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/07/2023 at 13:58, The Johnster said:

Brake vans in general were never fitted, having a fully functioning sentient (arguably) brake operating system aboard when in use, but those used on fully fitted trains were vacuum piped, and had vacuum gauges and a ‘brake setter’ (air inlet valve on a standpipe) by which the fully functioning sentient brake operating system could apply the train brakes if he needed to.  Such vans were painted in the BR bauxite livery, and I can certainly remember seeing GW toads in this livery.  
 

Not that obvious to a lineside or platform end observer, but the actual pipes were painted red on a fitted vehicle and white on a piped only vehicle. 
 

Mike’s fitted head toads are a slightly different proposition, not being used as brake vans in revenue service, and presumably retro-fitted with vacuum cylinders and working brakes.  These were a London Area thing and I was not familiar with them. 

No - they had been fitted, with automativ c brakes, when in service as brake vans.  See posts from others regarding that.  I can't see the WR in the late 1960s going to the expense of fitting redundant brake vans with automatic brakes for a job with a limited life.

Edited July 4, 2023 by The Stationmaster
typos

[Dunsignalling]

The relevant passage in GWR Goods Wagons clearly states that the 100 Toads to Diagram AA21 financed by the government in WW2 were vacuum fitted as-built, and also that an unspecified "few" of the 276 Diagram AA23 vans had it added by BR.

 

It doesn't state when, but my estimation would be pre- rather than post-1960 

 

John

Edited July 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling
Addition

[VIA185]

The Toad branded for the Tetbury branch was definitely bauxite. Can't locate my picture of it at the moment but considering its work on the branch was primarily with unfitted 16-ton mineral wagons I assume it was just an available van in good condition rather than one chosen specifically because it was fitted. (CJL)

 

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No - they had been fitted, with automativ c brakes, when in service as brake vans.  See posts from others regarding that.  I can't see teh Wr in the late 1960s going to the expense of fitting redundant brake vans with automatic brakes for a job with a limited life.

 

I did wonder, but it seemed counterintuitive.

 

1 hour ago, VIA185 said:

The Toad branded for the Tetbury branch was definitely bauxite. Can't locate my picture of it at the moment but considering its work on the branch was primarily with unfitted 16-ton mineral wagons I assume it was just an available van in good condition rather than one chosen specifically because it was fitted. (CJL)

 

 

It was probably used in a passenger formation at some time of the day.  The GW (and WR) were notorious for having vans allocated to specific workings even when BR introduced pool working, and I can't see a fitted van being used anywhere that it's vacuum brake capacity wa not required!  Of course, I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last...

[Pteremy]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The relevant passage in GWR Goods Wagons clearly states that the 100 Toads to Diagram AA21 financed by the government in WW2 were vacuum fitted as-built, and also that an unspecified "few" of the 276 Diagram AA23 vans had it added by BR.

 

It doesn't state when, but my estimation would be pre- rather than post-1960 

 

John

 

Ah yes. The reference to AA23 is on page is on page 480 - I was looking for some reference to conversions generally, in the end section detailing changes made to Toads after building.

 

With a bit more time I have had a look at Larkins Acquired Wagons Vol 1. There was a much earlier Diagram - AA11 - which was provided with vacuum brakes, some of which survived until the mid 1950s. Larkin also provides the vehicle numbers of Diagram AA19, AA20 and AA23 Toads which were vacuum fitted by BR. Finally, some 'AA23's were built by BR after Nationalisation as Diagram 1/502 and Larkin identifies 3 that were subsequently vacuum fitted 'after 1956'. 

[Garethp8873]

Great job Rapido!!

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Garethp8873

[Miss Prism]

According to the bible, the AA20s weighted up to 25T had an 'S' below the depot name (not a star).

 

[RichardS]

On 06/04/2023 at 09:49, cctransuk said:

 

Assurance accepted - but it still doesn't answer 'Why'.

 

However 'fairly negligible' the additional cost, I fail to see the point.

 

CJI.

I rarely comment on other people's posts. 

We British have for a tendency to accept what we are given. There'll be some huffing and puffing but the stiff upper lip and other silly mythical traits together with the habit of having a cup of tea and carrying on regardless has often meant we end up with second best or what manufacturers deign to provide. Heavens, we still accept track gauge from manufacturers which is wrong and happily and gladly do so!

Why should we?

Why shouldn't things be right? Why shouldn't they be better? 

We've never had it so good have we? But why shouldn't we have even better?

If manufacturers such as Rapido want to add detail or improve things generally we should be saying thank you. Not saying what's the point.

What's the point of improving anything? 

There's a saying about integrity. Those with real integrity always try to do the right thing even when there is nobody there to see them do it. (How many people reading this drop litter or fail to pick up some they drop if they think no one is looking I wonder.)

ie: just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it shouldn't happen or be there

Keep it up Rapido I'm very happy to buy your products - and yes I'm shifting 'lesser' items onto the s/h market as will many others where of course those who do not want the extra detail or finesse will find a larger choice.

There are no doubt people still happily running Wrenn Std 4MT tanks in GWR Green who might say they fail to see the point of having anything accurately coloured or more finely rendered. 

Model Railways, full stop. What's the point?

Sorry rant over but I deplore negativity and the 'second best is good enough for me' attitude. Be special - demand better.

 

[cctransuk]

11 hours ago, RichardS said:

I rarely comment on other people's posts. 

We British have for a tendency to accept what we are given. There'll be some huffing and puffing but the stiff upper lip and other silly mythical traits together with the habit of having a cup of tea and carrying on regardless has often meant we end up with second best or what manufacturers deign to provide. Heavens, we still accept track gauge from manufacturers which is wrong and happily and gladly do so!

Why should we?

Why shouldn't things be right? Why shouldn't they be better? 

We've never had it so good have we? But why shouldn't we have even better?

If manufacturers such as Rapido want to add detail or improve things generally we should be saying thank you. Not saying what's the point.

What's the point of improving anything? 

There's a saying about integrity. Those with real integrity always try to do the right thing even when there is nobody there to see them do it. (How many people reading this drop litter or fail to pick up some they drop if they think no one is looking I wonder.)

ie: just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it shouldn't happen or be there

Keep it up Rapido I'm very happy to buy your products - and yes I'm shifting 'lesser' items onto the s/h market as will many others where of course those who do not want the extra detail or finesse will find a larger choice.

There are no doubt people still happily running Wrenn Std 4MT tanks in GWR Green who might say they fail to see the point of having anything accurately coloured or more finely rendered. 

Model Railways, full stop. What's the point?

Sorry rant over but I deplore negativity and the 'second best is good enough for me' attitude. Be special - demand better.

 

 

At some point, needless expenditure of finite resources - not least energy - may force the question "Can we really justify the use of energy in order to produce non-essential items?" (Such as model railways).

 

Agreed, this is taking matters to a ridiculous extreme, but I deplore the use of energy, financial and human resources on something that can never be seen.

 

Far better that we don't bother, buy cheaper and, if so inclined, give the price differential to a deserving charity.

 

'Just because we can' is no justification for wasting time, energy and resources, any more than building super-cars for people with too much money and zero social conscience.

 

CJI.

[Graham_Muz]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

At some point, needless expenditure of finite resources - not least energy - may force the question "Can we really justify the use of energy in order to produce non-essential items?" (Such as model railways).

 

Agreed, this is taking matters to a ridiculous extreme, but I deplore the use of energy, financial and human resources on something that can never be seen.

 

Far better that we don't bother, buy cheaper and, if so inclined, give the price differential to a deserving charity.

 

'Just because we can' is no justification for wasting time, energy and resources, any more than building super-cars for people with too much money and zero social conscience.

 

CJI.

Someone give CJI his glass back so it can be at least half empty… ;)

[Captain Kernow]

12 hours ago, RichardS said:

I rarely comment on other people's posts. 

We British have for a tendency to accept what we are given. There'll be some huffing and puffing but the stiff upper lip and other silly mythical traits together with the habit of having a cup of tea and carrying on regardless has often meant we end up with second best or what manufacturers deign to provide. Heavens, we still accept track gauge from manufacturers which is wrong and happily and gladly do so!

Why should we?

Why shouldn't things be right? Why shouldn't they be better? 

We've never had it so good have we? But why shouldn't we have even better?

If manufacturers such as Rapido want to add detail or improve things generally we should be saying thank you. Not saying what's the point.

What's the point of improving anything? 

There's a saying about integrity. Those with real integrity always try to do the right thing even when there is nobody there to see them do it. (How many people reading this drop litter or fail to pick up some they drop if they think no one is looking I wonder.)

ie: just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it shouldn't happen or be there

Keep it up Rapido I'm very happy to buy your products - and yes I'm shifting 'lesser' items onto the s/h market as will many others where of course those who do not want the extra detail or finesse will find a larger choice.

There are no doubt people still happily running Wrenn Std 4MT tanks in GWR Green who might say they fail to see the point of having anything accurately coloured or more finely rendered. 

Model Railways, full stop. What's the point?

Sorry rant over but I deplore negativity and the 'second best is good enough for me' attitude. Be special - demand better.

 

And equally, those of us who think that the effort into putting that amount of effectively 'invisible' detail into a model have the absolute right to those opinions and to express them.

 

I've actually got a Rapido Toad on order (might even arrive today), but I can categorically say that I will NOT be running it on the layout with the roof taken off.

 

My thoughts could equally apply to those manufacturers who put additional but unseen (from normal angles, ie. when vehicle is right side up and on the track) detail underneath wagons and coaches.

 

I'm all for as much visible detail as possible, if it can be seen when the vehicle is on it's wheels, either at 'normal viewing distances' or in close-up under the unforgiving eye of a modern digital lens, but I can't see the point in putting detail that normally sits way up inside the underframe on a wagon, unless we are now being encouraged to model wagons on their side, following a derailment.

 

And to be fair, it's not just Rapido that to this, Accurascale also do it and possibly other manufacturers.

 

If I'm scratchbuilding or kitbuilding something, I will not waste my valuable modelling time adding detail that neither I nor anyone else will ever be able to see in normal circumstances.

 

So, I'm all for encouraging the manufacturers to make ever more detailed and accurate models, but only if said detail can actually be seen.

 

[Mike_Walker]

14 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

And equally, those of us who think that the effort into putting that amount of effectively 'invisible' detail into a model have the absolute right to those opinions and to express them.

 

I've actually got a Rapido Toad on order (might even arrive today), but I can categorically say that I will NOT be running it on the layout with the roof taken off.

 

My thoughts could equally apply to those manufacturers who put additional but unseen (from normal angles, ie. when vehicle is right side up and on the track) detail underneath wagons and coaches.

 

I'm all for as much visible detail as possible, if it can be seen when the vehicle is on it's wheels, either at 'normal viewing distances' or in close-up under the unforgiving eye of a modern digital lens, but I can't see the point in putting detail that normally sits way up inside the underframe on a wagon, unless we are now being encouraged to model wagons on their side, following a derailment.

 

And to be fair, it's not just Rapido that to this, Accurascale also do it and possibly other manufacturers.

 

If I'm scratchbuilding or kitbuilding something, I will not waste my valuable modelling time adding detail that neither I nor anyone else will ever be able to see in normal circumstances.

 

So, I'm all for encouraging the manufacturers to make ever more detailed and accurate models, but only if said detail can actually be seen.

 

I couldn't agree more!

[cctransuk]

50 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

Someone give CJI his glass back so it can be at least half empty… ;)

 

Graham,

 

JMHO - I am not, by nature, a glass-half-empty type of guy - I prefer my glass to be pint-sized, and with just the first gulp missing!

 

Nonetheless, so much human effort is wasted in doing frivolous things, I do think that a shift in mindset is required as to what is worth doing and what is not. I won't see that - and I'm afraid that human nature dictates that it will never happen.

 

If anyone wants to debate this further, I can often be found in 'The Hole in the Wall' in Bodmin, around 16.30 - 17.30! The 'Bass' is exceptionally good.

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/07/2023 at 16:50, VIA185 said:

The Toad branded for the Tetbury branch was definitely bauxite. Can't locate my picture of it at the moment but considering its work on the branch was primarily with unfitted 16-ton mineral wagons I assume it was just an available van in good condition rather than one chosen specifically because it was fitted. (CJL)

 

Which of course does not mean that it was necessarily fitted with automatic continuous brakes because it could equally have been piped rather than fully fitted.  And no doubt it was, as you say, and available van which was allocated to the branch.

 

There is a very faint p[ossibility that it might have been fitted to allow it to be worked back to Kemble (ot Tetbury) as tail traffic but I would think that unlikely although in the 1930s there were two Mixed Trains in the same direction over the branch with the two from Kemble running in the morning and theh two back from from Tetbury running in the late afternoon/evening.  

 

But equally of course because these trains were authorised to run as Mixed Trains it doesn't necessarily mean there was sufficient traffic for both of them.

[AY Mod]

Just to stir the pot up.

 

 

We've seen vans with basic internal detail before including a stove and basic paint. So how much further has this actually gone? Another paint colour for the benches etc. and the conduits so it probably doesn't add an awful lot more to the cost but it's pushing what can be done; that's the Rapido way.

 

You won't probably see some of this again either once on a layout.

 

Whatever your view on all, that it's a remarkably good model.

[Bucoops]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Just to stir the pot up.

 

 

We've seen vans with basic internal detail before including a stove and basic paint. So how much further has this actually gone? Another paint colour for the benches etc. and the conduits so it probably doesn't add an awful lot more to the cost but it's pushing what can be done; that's the Rapido way.

 

You won't probably see some of this again either once on a layout.

 

Whatever your view on all, that it's a remarkably good model.

 

If you lift the floor, is it full of scrap metal for the weight?