KR Models - New Class 40 EOI

[97406]

22 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Do you think the refettled Bachmann model of D213 32-487SF would still be available to order, with its revised nose end lighting ?

 

I have two of the current Bachmann 40s, one sound fitted, and it will be difficult to justify replacing them with new Bachmann ones, and KR is not even in my equation. The only issue I have with the current Bachmann 40s is the windscreen, and if it wasn't for trying to colour match the Bachmann BR green I would be looking at Shawplan replacement windscreens and cab faces.  

I appreciate that the BR green shade may differ, but I’ve successfully blended in Railmatch BR Blue when fitting the Shawplan screens to the banger blue examples. I also forward dated an 85 and repainted the cab roofs with Railmatch blue.

[Covkid]

9 hours ago, 97406 said:

I appreciate that the BR green shade may differ, but I’ve successfully blended in Railmatch BR Blue when fitting the Shawplan screens to the banger blue examples. I also forward dated an 85 and repainted the cab roofs with Railmatch blue.

 

That is useful and reassuring in equal measure.  Thank you 

[Covkid]

9 hours ago, 97406 said:

I appreciate that the BR green shade may differ, but I’ve successfully blended in Railmatch BR Blue when fitting the Shawplan screens to the banger blue examples. I also forward dated an 85 and repainted the cab roofs with Railmatch blue.

Do you have a piccie of the screens after fitting and finishing please ?

[97406]

14 hours ago, Covkid said:

Do you have a piccie of the screens after fitting and finishing please ?

 

All blue disc and split 40s are later Bachmann retools with the screens done and paint touched up around the screens only. 97405 was originally a green retooled version and D200 was an earlier 40 with a Lima mid section and was completely resprayed.

 

Also, it’s a lot easier to fit the screens if you remove the bottom portion so they just sit on the bonnet. Solder the screens to the backplate and use superglue and activator to stick the assembly in place. You can use a bit of wire to draw a blob of glue around the joins. If you spray activator on first the glue behaves like a filler. It takes a few goes and then sand it to shape with wet and dry.

 

Read the article in the page below to get a better idea of what to do, it’s based on the Lima 40 but the approach works for the Bachmann 40 albeit with Shawplan screens and backplates rather than the older Craftsman ones in the article. The principle is the same.

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Journal/BMRJ_Issue_40_pub.pdf

Edited December 13, 2022 by 97406

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/12/2022 at 17:51, Hilux5972 said:

Feedback about details was relayed back to KR and they did act on this. About the plain interior of the hopper I believe? Hidden somewhere in the Consett thread. 

Er yes - but tooling, or altering the tooling for a wagon isn't exactly comparable with a far larger and more complex thing such as a loco.  The Fell was a minefield of detail changes and they walked right into it and not only stayed in that minefield but didn't even get right some, very obvious,  things which never changed on the loco from the day it entered traffic to the day it became a pile of scrap metal.   No doubt even if they realised what they'd got wrong the costs of amending or re-tooling could well have been too much for their budget.  If you don't get things right at the start you are going t throw away money - wherever it comes from but it's a lot easier to waste someone else's money than it is to waste and risk your own.

 

'Expert knowledge' is only of any value if people are not only prepared to listen to it but - as a project progresses further and further - area also prepared to pay the potential additional costs that arise as a result of the detailed input.    And when you are setting a price and taking payment upfront the room for additional costs to make corrections can be very limited.

[Ian J.]

Interesting thoughts, Mike.

 

I think I can add something to them, in that I think it seems to come down to return on investment, where there is some level of rigid investment amount on a project.

 

Maybe KR and Heljan (and perhaps Dapol) suffer from it. They set a budget, and if things aren't done properly in the research and design phases, there isn't enough budget to correct them and finish the projects, so they opt to reach a certain point in R&D then just go to tooling regardless.

 

I think this probably does affect their eventual ROI, but in both of two ways. By spending less and producing a model just about adequate for a sufficiently sized sub set of the potential buyers, they can probably break even, maybe turn a small profit. However, by allowing errors to get through, extra profit becomes limited due to the models not being of sufficient accuracy for the remainder of the potential buyers.

 

The likes of Accurascale, Revolution, Rapido, Cavalex, SLW, etc, seem to be more of a mind that initial investment needs to be enough to make sure the models are of sufficient accuracy to appeal to the majority of potential buyers, and get more sales in both the short and longer terms.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ian J.

[The Ghost of IKB]

I think there is a need for a better class 40.  Bachmann model is OK, but compared to modern standards, accu 92 and 55, Bach 37, slw 24, its very basic and old tech.

If (big if) krm can meet the new standards I'll buy 3 or 4, maybe more, but to be honest I'm still holding on to the hope of an accura 40 being announced before this one gets off the drawing board. (Cad screen)

[SHMD]

I have some problems with a 40 from KRM.

 

1/ I really don't like "up front" payment (unless its' something I really really want BUT IT MUST be from a manufacturer/supplier that has a proven itself to deliver and deliver "right").

 

2/ KRM seem to be only interested in "celebrity" type locos. I, for one, want "prototypical/run of the mill" type locos, so it would seem it would be a long time before they produced anything I wanted.

 

3/ Products delivered so far seem to range between  "below expectations" to "OK". I would hope for better.

 

4/ I have no confidence that the development budget would stretch to multiple tooling options. Some previous releases used just one tooling with paint (or different mouldings on different loco sides!) to depict different times in the locos history.

 

5/ Interactive communications. (OK, we are being spoilt by the likes of AccuraScale and Rapido here but that is the new "standard".)

 

 

I may be wrong on one or more, of the above points, but they ARE the impression I have, and I have no intention of expressing any interest in a 40 from KRM - at the moment.

 

 

Kev.

[John M Upton]

Well, the Fell which could have been so good has turned up as an absolute dogs dinner and KRM really don't seem to care.  I was interested in a Leader but on The Fell form, they can forget it.

[PieGuyRob]

12 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Well, the Fell which could have been so good has turned up as an absolute dogs dinner and KRM really don't seem to care.  I was interested in a Leader but on The Fell form, they can forget it.

I have to agree. There is no way I'm signing an expression of intrest, or paying up front. They have burnt to many bridges now.

[drgj]

Looking forward to seeing this loco.  KR are producing some interesting models like the double deck unit. The GT3 was well received. 

 

Dave

[atom3624]

Boosting a 'quiet' thread.

I grew up with 40's crossing a local bridge, seeing them on a daily basis, so despite the 'underpowered' real-time criticism, they're a firm favourite of mine.

My old Bachmann, which I added lights to runs like a dream - quiet, smooth, crawls well, hauls well, looks fine enough, and with a very good top end.

If the new addition can trump this, I'd be happy!

Al.

[rob D2]

Wait for a decent manufacturer I’d think 

[younGGuns7]

12 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Wait for a decent manufacturer I’d think 

It has been so quiet on this one 

[Hilux5972]

Let’s just wait and see shall we. My GT3 runs well and I can’t fault my Consett wagons. Yes the Fell has some very serious issues, but let’s just see. Gives some hope that they are working with the CFPS on this. 

[stovepipe]

12 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Let’s just wait and see shall we. My GT3 runs well and I can’t fault my Consett wagons. Yes the Fell has some very serious issues, but let’s just see. Gives some hope that they are working with the CFPS on this. 

 

But only if KRM actually listens to the CFPS.

 

Some of their direct mailings are frankly bizarre - the latest about the last run-out GT3s has had the effect of reducing the liklehood of my spending any money with them. They don't seem to know how to read the room; it's all misplaced belligerance and attempted controversy where none exists. No thanks.

[jjb1970]

I still think the best approach is to wait.

 

If it's a nice model and sold via retail channels then buy one (Rails seem to be getting their releases).

 

If it's a nice model and only those who pre-order are able to buy, then the Bachmann one is still nice enough and I suspect someone else will do a full fat 40.

 

If it's a bit of a Fell, then it's best to avoid and sitting and waiting will save you money that could buy something better instead.

[Ian Hargrave]

ATM,the noises emanating from KR ( see the GT 3 thread ) are the sounds of a gunshot through the foot…..and a rather ominous disinscentive to speculate on an order. I was seriously contemplating a Bulleid Leader,having seen development samples but my head says hold on and wait to see what is delivered…preferably to retail distribution such as Rails.Why the guy chooses to behave like this is entirely beyond me. He seems to be hell bent on alienating an entire client group rather than encouraging a constructive dialogue.Not good.

[adb968008]

16 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Let’s just wait and see shall we. My GT3 runs well and I can’t fault my Consett wagons. Yes the Fell has some very serious issues, but let’s just see. Gives some hope that they are working with the CFPS on this. 

This hope can be dangerous…

CFPS maintain real class 40’s… not miniature ones.

 

The detail of the model is down to the model railway company, unless the cfps are designing it / signing it off ?

[Hilux5972]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

This hope can be dangerous…

CFPS maintain real class 40’s… not miniature ones.

 

The detail of the model is down to the model railway company, unless the cfps are designing it / signing it off ?

I very much doubt the CFPS would put their name to something if they didn’t feel they had some sway over details and design. 

[Roy Langridge]

15 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

I very much doubt the CFPS would put their name to something if they didn’t feel they had some sway over details and design. 

I can see them being able to supply information etc. but not being able to influence “design” decisions taken to make the model economically viable. It is here I worry, and will wait to order. 
 

Roy

[JSpencer]

This is a huge market with a lot of people who know these locos very well and - I feel - it is probably too ambitious for KR at this time.

 

The GT3 was a good first attempt for a new comer. Certain things could have been better, some bits were put right in later batches. But it was a reasonably successful first step. Followed by their wagons which were ok too. Then the fell took 2 steps backwards. Serious error in the roof, the drive train really needed all the gears to be successful.

There are other projects on the way, so there are opportunities to try and get back to GT3 level and improve upon it.

 

One issue is KR are not alone in the class 40.

Back in the late 70s and for most of the 80s, we only had the Joeuf model. I remember wanting one as kid but they were always a premium in the magazines back then. And I kept a couple of articles, fans of the 40s found the models failings (the shape was seriously wrong for a start) and then fans of the model would defend it to the death....

All that fell aside when Lima did theirs, which captured the 40 really well despite not having much fitted detail and a pancake motor.

 

Bachmann then brought theirs out in the early 2000s. It looked wrong, and you can place it next to lima's and instantly see that it had shape issues. But - I feel - this attempt was still better than the KR Fell!

Bachmann then released an (almost) all new 40 a few years back, I find the shape matches Lima's quite well (split nose version in my case). But it sits high and the bogies lack relief, especially compared to a Kernow Bullied diesel.

 

So KR will have the tricky task of trying to match the shape (or getting it finer) than Bachmann's latest release and giving the model Kernow Bullied style bogies (a master piece of model engineering) with all the in depth relief. 

This is quite a steep learning curve to get there and I am not sure if KR are ready for that yet. It is like asking someone with a few years experience with a Piano to play master pieces that need 10 years experience to do. Yeah most the notes will be there, but some parts won't and that is a problem.

Edited May 16, 2023 by JSpencer

[Roy Langridge]

38 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

This is a huge market with a lot of people who know these locos very well and - I feel - it is probably too ambitious for KR at this time.

 

The GT3 was a good first attempt for a new comer. Certain things could have been better, some bits were put right in later batches. But it was a reasonably successful first step. Followed by their wagons which were ok too. Then the fell took 2 steps backwards. Serious error in the roof, the drive train really needed all the gears to be successful.

There are other projects on the way, so there are opportunities to try and get back to GT3 level and improve upon it.

 

One issue is KR are not alone in the class 40.

Back in the late 70s and for most of the 80s, we only had the Joeuf model. I remember wanting one as kid but they were always a premium in the magazines back then. And I kept a couple of articles, fans of the 40s found the models failings (the shape was seriously wrong for a start) and then fans of the model would defend it to the death....

All that fell aside when Lima did theirs, which captured the 40 really well despite not having much fitted detail and a pancake motor.

 

Bachmann then brought theirs out in the early 2000s. It looked wrong, and you can place it next to lima's and instantly see that it had shape issues. But - I feel - this attempt was still better than the KR Fell!

Bachmann then released an (almost) all new 40 a few years back, I find the shape matches Lima's quite well (split nose version in my case). But it sits high and the bogies lack relief, especially compared to a Kernow Bullied diesel.

 

So KR will have the tricky task of trying to match the shape (or getting it finer) than Bachmann's latest release and giving the model Kernow Bullied style bogies (a master piece of model engineering) with all the in depth relief. 

This is quite a steep learning curve to get there and I am not sure if KR are ready for that yet. It is like asking someone with a few years experience with a Piano to play master pieces that need 10 years experience to do. Yeah most the notes will be there, but some parts won't and that is a problem.

 

Basic shape aside, there are also a lot of variations across the Class 40 and I for one want to see a new model that can cater for those. The likes of Accurascale go to that level of detail, and it is that attention to detail that will make a definitive Class 40.

Roy

[BR Blue]

First and foremost, they have to get the shape right. I am not holding my breath on that. Would be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

Secondly, the detail of the variations. Again my hopes are not high. Research and attention to detail are required. They do not necessarily need to do all the variations, just some of the main ones.

 

Overall, the GT3 is a good model but I would not say it is to a higher standard than the current Bachmann 40. The Fell is a poor model, to a similar standard as the Jouef 40. Therefore expecting something better than the current Bachmann 40 is a long shot in my opinion.

 

 

[MidlandRed]

3 hours ago, BR Blue said:

First and foremost, they have to get the shape right. I am not holding my breath on that. Would be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

Secondly, the detail of the variations. Again my hopes are not high. Research and attention to detail are required. They do not necessarily need to do all the variations, just some of the main ones.

 

Overall, the GT3 is a good model but I would not say it is to a higher standard than the current Bachmann 40. The Fell is a poor model, to a similar standard as the Jouef 40. Therefore expecting something better than the current Bachmann 40 is a long shot in my opinion.

 

 

I wouldn’t say the Fell is a bad model - it has detail errors (particularly on one side) and a potential issue with coupling rods (people on here had pointed out the side issues and have got annoyed because they didn’t get corrected in the production version) but given there’s no opportunity to laser scan a non existent prototype, the shape pretty much looks like a Fell to me. And the same for GT3.

 

In contrast the opportunity to get the details right on the class 40 is there as modern techniques such as 3D laser scanning of the whole or parts can be used. One area which has caused problem for even the most recent class 37 examples is the cab windscreens and the same exists for KR with the 40. Whilst there will always be compromises, thicknesses of windscreen pillars have been the downfall of many modejj looks in the past (eg class 31 - the latest is pretty good although I suspect they’re still a little on the thick side). I do worry we’re in danger of talking KR out of so many sales by all the negative comments here - surely we should wait and see their proposals?? 

Some manufacturers do use certain hyperbole in their advertisements - I can think of another which engages in certain levels of humour, some of which doesn’t suit my taste, but hey ho, I just skip over it as the info I want is actually there as well. 
 

I would observe that it seems anyone commenting negatively in any way on certain other manufacturer’s products (good as they are - and some are exceptional) is greeted with absolute disdain, whereas for others moaning and criticism (including KR) is the norm (though it’s very refreshing to observe the terminal Hornby bashing seems to have relented of late 🤣

Edited May 17, 2023 by MidlandRed