KR Models - New Class 40 EOI

[Halvarras]

IMHO the involvement of the CFPS can only be a good thing and it is now up to that organisation and KRM to communicate and get the details right, and for KRM to show us what they can really do - taking on such a popular and mainstream subject is 'make-or-break' time for the company. I recall that Bachmann's first Class 45/46 Peaks, although basically sound in shape and running quality, had numerous detail errors which neither they nor we would countenance nowadays,  so this is KRM's moment. Get it very right and demand for a wider range will take off - get it wrong and their range will stop at the four 'celebrities' - a lot to play for then. This is going to be one to watch from here on.......

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So lets drag it up 1 rung higher than the bottom…

 

The specs…

 

£210 KR are offering..

New Tooling

Etched Grills

Cab Light

Cast Chassis

Fine detail

Lok sound v5 with twin speakers

cold start sound function

 

£209 Bachmann 

New tooled nose ends

Etched Grills

Cast Chassis

Directional lighting

Enhanced lighting

Twin speakers

Plux 22 decoder 

Known & Tested drive system

Known and tested quality

Known and tested accuracy (flaws known)
Known and tested Livery

Any drawbacks are already factored in due to prior releases of 40.

It will fit and sit with my existing 40’s.

Other factors

 

ok so £209 vs £210, £1 difference.. however

 

The Bachmann 40 will be available via retailers.

1. So it will be supporting the trade, whom also support Warley and other exhibitions around the country.

2. For those who are more fiscally focussed, those retailers often offer discounts, and hold stock for several months after release, rather than requiring an up front commit for an unseen product.

3. Additionally, Bachmann supply spare parts, ondemand , via their own website and offer a 2 year warranty to club members.

 

mini swat

 

Strengths..

1. New tooling

2. Supports cfps

 

Weaknesses

1. Dont know how its paid for

2. Dont know what i’m getting, or when

3. We dont know the future potential (are other variations of 40 being tooled in for instance)

 

Opportunities

1. First model of 40106 since Lima days

2. It might be a super tooling, state of the art. (I’m stretching my confidence to the point of a hernia here).

 

Threats

1. Bachmann make a ton of new ones, available nationwide and after discount maybe £160-180 for several months, if not years like the 45’s.

2. Someone else makes one or something unforseen happens.

 

 

we then have by way of comparison

£190 Accurascales class 50..

 

Highly-detailed OO scale model, 1:76.2 scale

Minimum Radius 438mm (2nd Radius Set-track) in OO

Die-cast metal chassis

RP25-110 profile OO wheels with provision for re-gauging with scale-sized wheels for P4/EM gauges – with simple ride height adjustment – and ability to set brake blocks in line with wheels

Separately-applied etched metal/plastic detail parts, including grab handles, steps, wipers, etc.

Scale width wire handrails

Etched metal pre-painted nameplates and crests (where applicable) provided for customer to install

Interchangeable printed headcodes with full description covering the first nine years of the class plus preservation era

Scale-sized and mounted snowploughs provided for customer to install, with one-piece NEM mounted option

Full underframe tank, battery box and full-formed compressor detail with extensive pipework and other separate parts

Fully sprung buffers, super-fine pipework and screw couplings (for display)

Kinetic NEM coupler mounts at correct height and mini-tension-lock couplers

Separately powered working radiator fan with different speed settings

DCC ready [21-Pin MTX Socket] or Factory-Fitted DCC Sound options

High Performance traction, to include;

Five-Pole motor with two flywheels

Metal Helical Gear box for maximum performance and slow speed running

Gearing arranged so locomotive can achieve minimum scale top speed of 125 mph (200 km/h)

DCC ready with PowerPack capacitor for uninterrupted power

All wheel drive (sprung centre axle) and all wheel pickup

Fully detailed Lighting Pack, including:

Directional lighting, DC and DCC

Switchable Red and white marker lights with correctly configured lights for preservation era oddballs 50008 and 50044

Separately switched cab lighting and illuminated, driver’s desk, auto/off on movement

Interior lighting with cast electrical compartment and engine bay detail on metal motor enclosure

Customised Dual-Speaker Technology with large "Accurathrash" Bass Speaker and smaller ‘iphone’ style cube for higher frequencies (on DCC Sound-fitted models only)

Hall sensor for flange squeal effect (on DCC Sound-fitted models only)

 

 

Thoughts

 

The spec of the Accurascale is utterly well defined.

The quality of Accurascale is well known.

I can buy Accurascale from nationwide retailers.

The Accuracy & research is second to none.

The price is lower than KR models.

They have support & after sales in the UK.

 

Crucially

Accurascales communication is second to none

Accurascales level of engagement, and ability to listen and react is well documented.

I know exactly where I stand, I know what to expect and I feel very well consulted & informed.

Conclusion

 

Should anyone present know of any reason that this couple (KR models and class 40) should not be joined in holy matrimony, speak now or forever hold your peace…

 

(Hint it would be a really good time to speak up)

 

For me, right now Bachmann is not swung off my shopping list.

But if its a choice between 40 and 50… as it stands, its an easy one.

 

Says it all.  Do you go for someone with an established track record (albeit with a few stumbles here and there) where you don't have to commit any money before buying the product?  Or do you subsidise somebody's business with no choice but to do that and a somewhat 'lumpy' previous record of delivery?

 

It is very difficult for newcomers to get established in r-t-r and they really have to deliver something special in order to do so.  If they don't do that and then announce a mainstream model up against well established competition I tend to wonder about their business plan, especially if I would be funding it.  An EE Type 4 could be just about appropriate for me (a Class 40 definitely wouldn't as it happens) so on that basis alone I would think very carefully where my money is going and what I'm going to get for it.

 

 

[96701]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Says it all.  Do you go for someone with an established track record (albeit with a few stumbles here and there) where you don't have to commit any money before buying the product?  Or do you subsidise somebody's business with no choice but to do that and a somewhat 'lumpy' previous record of delivery?

 

It is very difficult for newcomers to get established in r-t-r and they really have to deliver something special in order to do so.  If they don't do that and then announce a mainstream model up against well established competition I tend to wonder about their business plan, especially if I would be funding it.  An EE Type 4 could be just about appropriate for me (a Class 40 definitely wouldn't as it happens) so on that basis alone I would think very carefully where my money is going and what I'm going to get for it.

 

 

I have subsidised KR for the GT3 and the Fell, and after taking delivery of the Fell,  will not be paying up front for an EE Type 4. I need to convince myself that the finished object is something that I'd like to see running on my layout. If that means that there are insufficient expressions of interest, then so be it.

[Pmorgancym]

Seems an odd choice for KR, they've done quite well on their little niche of the werid and wonderful, taking on something mainstream with competition from Bachmann and possibly Accurascale could be a mistake.   I was expecting something like prototype HST power cars 

[No Decorum]

On 29/11/2022 at 04:53, jjb1970 said:

Whether people object to the model or not is a personal value decision and each of us will have our own sensibilities.

 

I can see why some object, and I respect that, but I really don't have the same feelings. If I look at the things that are routinely modelled the GTR class 40 scores very low on the scale of associated suffering. For example, aircraft like the Avro Lancaster, Boeing B-17 & B-29, Heinkel 111, Junkers 88 are hugely popular with aviation modellers yet were used to bomb civilians, killing huge numbers, including children. I've made countless models of those aircraft, I also love museums like Duxford and the tank museum. Some say the GTR is different because it was a criminal undertaking, but I can't see that lawful killing of countless civilians by military organizations (many of which were legally questionable) is less morally objectionable because of a cloak of legality. Given that I've been a military and aviation modeller for most my life it would be profoundly hypocritical of me to object to this class 40.

 

But that's just my position, as I say, it's very much a personal value judgement.

Your point is well made. Is the proposal to make a GTR Class 40 all that different from Bachmann’s proposal to make a model of The Unknown Warrior, the new-build project intended to create a Patriot as a national war memorial locomotive?

[AY Mod]

28 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Is the proposal to make a GTR Class 40 all that different from Bachmann’s proposal to make a model of The Unknown Warrior, the new-build project intended to create a Patriot as a national war memorial locomotive?

 

Fundamentally I would say "Yes". The model will be of The Unknown Warrior which is a locomotive that is created, at least in part, as a memorial.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

Your point is well made. Is the proposal to make a GTR Class 40 all that different from Bachmann’s proposal to make a model of The Unknown Warrior, the new-build project intended to create a Patriot as a national war memorial locomotive?

One is an event that is a commercial proposal to use the action of a group of thugs to make money. The other is to remember a war hero who died so that you have the freedom to write such nonsense.

Seems very different to me.

But then, I probably have been more directly affected than you.

Bernard

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Your point is well made. Is the proposal to make a GTR Class 40 all that different from Bachmann’s proposal to make a model of The Unknown Warrior, the new-build project intended to create a Patriot as a national war memorial locomotive?

 

I may not be the best person to answer as I have no real objection to either a GTR model or models like the Lancaster, B29, He111, Ju87 etc. That said I do think there's a difference between building a steam locomotive and naming it in honour of dead soldiers and a weapon of war. The first is a tribute to those who fell, the second is a tool used to kill. I have always seen such machines simply as machines, and I admire the design and engineering, and as a history enthusiast I find the link with history interesting. However, I also realize what those machines were used for and why some would find modelling them objectionable.

A couple of weeks ago I visited the Udvar Hazy Center of the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum with an office colleague. He found seeing the Ebola Gay quite disturbing but to me it was a fascinating part of history. I've been to the peace museum in Hiroshima and found it deeply moving (I would recommend that everyone should visit if they are able) but I can still look at the Enola Gay simply as a particularly significant aircraft.

So I would have no issue buying the GTR Class 40 if I was an enthusiast of Class 40's or interested in the event. The reason I won't order is simply because I am not really interested in the GTR and don't like 40's, not for moral objections.

[No Decorum]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

One is an event that is a commercial proposal to use the action of a group of thugs to make money. The other is to remember a war hero who died so that you have the freedom to write such nonsense.

Seems very different to me.

But then, I probably have been more directly affected than you.

Bernard

First of all, four members of my family were killed in the First World War; three have no known grave. So for all anyone knows, any one of them could be the Unknown Warrior. I do see the distinction being made. However, I believe that the Great Train Robbery should be remembered, not least for the sake of Driver Jack Mills. I would not equate the danger a soldier faces with the actions of a criminal gang but both war and criminal activity are tragedies of different kinds to be avoided or prevented where possible. If they are forgotten, a repetition is more likely.

 

Does making a model of the Class 40 involved in the robbery trivialise the event? Perhaps it does. Here, perhaps the views of those most closely concerned should be the guide. Could we argue that no model of a Class 40 should be made because a member of the class was involved in the robbery?

[jjb1970]

My advice would be that if the GTR model offends you then don't buy it. Stating your objections and letting KR know your feelings is fair enough, but it is what it is and although I respect and support the right of people to voice opinions, boycott models etc I also think others should be free to make their own decision and buy such a model if they like it.

[Phil Parker]

OK - before this spirals out of control, can we just accept that the locomotive exists, and that someone was always going to make a model of it. If KR hadn't, then a modeller would have renumbered theirs, or maybe someone else would have comissioned it.

 

If you don't like or approve of the model, don't buy it. If you consider that KR are using its noteriety to publicise their model, realise that all the huffing on here only helps that cause, so stop.

 

Thank you.

[Bucoops]

33 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

First of all, four members of my family were killed in the First World War; three have no known grave. So for all anyone knows, any one of them could be the Unknown Warrior.

 

Have you ever tried to locate them? A hobby my Mum has is to try and track down First World War graves as part of a group. She doesn't do as many field trips (literally sometimes) as she used to, but there's quite an active bunch of people trying to find service personnel who have an unknown resting place. They don't have a huge success rate for obvious reasons but they do get lucky sometimes.

[No Decorum]

16 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Have you ever tried to locate them? A hobby my Mum has is to try and track down First World War graves as part of a group. She doesn't do as many field trips (literally sometimes) as she used to, but there's quite an active bunch of people trying to find service personnel who have an unknown resting place. They don't have a huge success rate for obvious reasons but they do get lucky sometimes.

I can’t say that I have. I don’t believe their bodies were ever found.

[JSpencer]

16 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I can’t say that I have. I don’t believe their bodies were ever found.

 

Going OTT: I found the exact locations of my family members who gave their lives here: https://www.cwgc.org/

 

Always a good place to start and what I found most humbling was actually visiting their graves and talking to the people who look after them even though often they are from a completely different nation. People abroad remembering the sacrifices our soldiers made to free them.

[No Decorum]

39 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Going OTT: I found the exact locations of my family members who gave their lives here: https://www.cwgc.org/

 

Always a good place to start and what I found most humbling was actually visiting their graves and talking to the people who look after them even though often they are from a completely different nation. People abroad remembering the sacrifices our soldiers made to free them.

O/T The missing are remembered on very grand memorials. At the Menin Gate there is a very touching ceremony held daily when the traffic stops and buglers sound The Last Post. I think it a shame that the CWGC only tends graves from the First World War onwards. My great grandfather was killed in the Crimean War and the British war cemetery there is a vandalised mess.

[Phil Parker]

I've asked nicely once and you've chosen to ignore me. Please get this thread back to the class 40, or I'll lock it until the EP appears. 

[Colin_McLeod]

Class 40 viewing while you are waiting.

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 30/11/2022 at 12:02, Halvarras said:

IMHO the involvement of the CFPS can only be a good thing and it is now up to that organisation and KRM to communicate and get the details right, and for KRM to show us what they can really do

Cfps own and maintain 40’s. I wouldnt hold them responsible for the details of the model… they dont make model trains.

 

In the past several models have been made “in conjunction with” <<insert BOK of your choice>> only to result in an end product that could have been better, but found themselves tarred with that brush, even though the model / costs / compromises was not their decisions.

 

if the cfps had commissioned KR to make the class 40’s then maybe it would fall more on their skillset to define what it looked like, but as far as I see the cfps are a beneficiary input, not a responsible party for the models decisions…

 

This could also be a gap that could be of a concern, if one party thinks the other party has a greater role accountable for the design accuracy and details.

 

knowing what level of role the cfps has, going beyond providing locos to scan and some feedback, would imo improve in building my confidence in this model.

 

On 01/12/2022 at 14:59, Phil Parker said:

OK - before this spirals out of control, can we just accept that the locomotive exists,

 

I know you travel much Phil, and far be it for me to enquire about your time travelling skills, but it doesnt exist, not since April 1984.

When it comes to 40126, the toilets been flushed, but the smell remains.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by adb968008

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Cfps own and maintain 40’s. I wouldnt hold them responsible for the details of the model… they dont make model trains.

 

Granted, but I don't think "can only be a good thing" was an overstatement on my part. One would expect that the CFPS encompasses more than a few Class 40 experts with detailed knowledge they would be willing to share. The rest is up to KRM.....

[adb968008]

29 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

Granted, but I don't think "can only be a good thing" was an overstatement on my part. One would expect that the CFPS encompasses more than a few Class 40 experts with detailed knowledge they would be willing to share. The rest is up to KRM.....

Yep..

Quote

“We waste an enormous amount of time making decisions based entirely on this fanciful notion that we like alternatives.” 
― Jeremy Clarkson, Can You Make This Thing Go Faster?

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by adb968008

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

Granted, but I don't think "can only be a good thing" was an overstatement on my part. One would expect that the CFPS encompasses more than a few Class 40 experts with detailed knowledge they would be willing to share. The rest is up to KRM.....

KR have shown no desire to listen to feedback from those who have knowledge of models made so far so why would we expect them to seek and take onboard any critical feedback from CFPS?
 

Their business model seems to be to let their Chinese supplier knock out a cheap & cheerful CAD, followed by a cheap & cheerful tooling which largely remains unchanged as a cheap & cheerful model.

 

no fidelity, no fine tuning.

[Colin_McLeod]

7 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

 

Their business model seems to be to let their Chinese supplier knock out a cheap & cheerful CAD, followed by a cheap & cheerful tooling which largely remains unchanged as a cheap & cheerful model.

 

 

Not every manufacturer of cars, washing machines, sofas (substitute item of choice) build to the same quality standards.  Some charge more for a quality product, some charge less for a lower quality product.  Some even charge more for a lower quality product!! We know this when buying.

 

KR Models seem to be aiming at the lower quality end regarding attention to detail. If it looks like a class XX, then it can be sold as "something that looks like a class XX"

 

If we bear this in mind, then don't expect a Rolls Royce when buying a Skoda, nor criticise Skoda for not making Rolls Royce quality cars. (apologies to Skoda fans - just illustrating a point)

[scottystitch]

38 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

If we bear this in mind, then don't expect a Rolls Royce when buying a Skoda, nor criticise Skoda for not making Rolls Royce quality cars. (apologies to Skoda fans - just illustrating a point)

I agree, based on the quality of the models produced. 
 

However, if that’s the case, it is perhaps a little disingenuous at best for KRM to claim they are bringing “…top quality models to you.”

 

source: https://www.krmodels.net/about/

 

Best

 

Scott. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by scottystitch

[Ian J.]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

...If it looks like a class XX, then it can be sold as "something that looks like a class XX"...

 

Except that, to the best of my understanding, KR do seem to be selling their models as faithful representations of a given prototype, not 'something that looks like a given prototype'.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Not every manufacturer of cars, washing machines, sofas (substitute item of choice) build to the same quality standards.  Some charge more for a quality product, some charge less for a lower quality product.  Some even charge more for a lower quality product!! We know this when buying.

 

KR Models seem to be aiming at the lower quality end regarding attention to detail. If it looks like a class XX, then it can be sold as "something that looks like a class XX"

 

If we bear this in mind, then don't expect a Rolls Royce when buying a Skoda, nor criticise Skoda for not making Rolls Royce quality cars. (apologies to Skoda fans - just illustrating a point)

This is KRs own words from their announcement 

 

We have a big announcement to make! We are announcing the Class 40 in 4 liveries! 3 preserved liveries and the Great Train Robbery BR Green, D326.

We have been working closely with the Class 40 Preservation Society to bring you the most accurate and detailed models of this magnificent machine possible with new and fresh tooling. Proposed starting price available is £210, but is subject to change.

 

🤔