OO gauge Austerity 2-10-0

[atom3624]

Brushless motors can generally be compared to a tuned engine - LESS torque low down (where you need it) but (depending on turns, wire thickness, etc) considerably more powerful, and higher revving in general cf brushed - from many years 'playing' with R/C cars and trucks!

I don't think use of a BL motor would be a benefit to a heavy goods locomotive with a general need for low down torque, not top speed.

Al.

[Colin_McLeod]

What's wrong with accepting a simple mistake stating brushless instead of coreless?

[JSpencer]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I have often wondered whether model drive trains are truly designed or just put together based on experience.  By which I mean does someone figure out a desired performance and then calculate power, torque etc? Some models are superb runners with excellent performance,  others are less than great. Is it just luck or do some do it properly and others not?

 

It is quite a challenge. Someone building a kit - with experience -  probably won't need much side play and can build a chassis perfectly spot on and use 70 to 1 worm and gear in one stage and have the model running perfectly.

A manufacturer has to consider multiple users running on all sorts of track work and account for a wide range of side play on an item that is mass produced to certain tolerences. Fine teeth will bind under these 

conditions leading to poor running and high wear. They can do gear reduction in two stages however with bigger teeth. 

In the 80s Dapol did several chassis with gear rations before deciding on a balance for their terrier. So I guess some maths and some experimentation. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by JSpencer

[MidlandRed]

23 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

I think you just made that all up to support an argument that doesn’t hold water. I have 9 Accurascale locos and another 5 on order, and haven’t had to pre-pay for a single one. 
 

Roy

Actually, not at all. I bought a model with payment up front direct from Accurascale some while back and I wasn’t aware there was any other form of payment available. 
 

I was later offered kindly, the ability to pay on delivery by Accurascale following a discussion in another thread - I responded that I was happy to support them so I left my payment with them in advance. However I did recommend they alter their web site to make payment options clearer - since then, they’ve introduced the pre payment in instalment option and indeed, I’ve ordered a couple of locos which are on pre order and I found the payment later option.

 

Im not really having a go at them, more people accusing KR of crowd funding whilst not being consistent with others 

 

As stated in another post above, ordering KR models via retailers does not require advance payment (similar to Hornby, Accurascale et al). 

Edited December 18, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Actually, not at all. I bought a model with payment up front direct from Accurascale some while back and I wasn’t aware there was any other form of payment available. 
 

I was later offered kindly, the ability to pay on delivery by Accurascale following a discussion in another thread - I responded that I was happy to support them so I left my payment with them in advance. However I did recommend they alter their web site to make payment options clearer - since then, they’ve introduced the pre payment in instalment option and indeed, I’ve ordered a couple of locos which are on pre order and I found the payment later option.

 

Im not really having a go at them, more people accusing KR of crowd funding whilst not being consistent with others 

 

As stated in another post above, ordering KR models via retailers does not require advance payment (similar to Hornby, Accurascale et al). 

I just don’t see how you missed that you didn’t have to pay up front. I ordered my first Accurascale loco the day they launched the Deltic and have ordered many since, never have I felt pre-paying was the only option, indeed, probably the opposite. 
 

So, it seems that you are aware that Accurascale do not require prepayment, yet assert there is a difference to Bachmann that does not exist?
 

Roy

Edited December 19, 2023 by Roy Langridge

[The Stationmaster]

On 17/12/2023 at 20:37, MidlandRed said:

These sorts of argument could be placed against other manufacturers - eg Accurascale v Bachmann class 37 - one immediately available, no payment up front, the other positively encouraging payment up front (indeed didn’t make it at all clear pre payment wasn’t the only method until fairly recently) and not available for some time, one a more major and long standing player than the other. 
 

I don’t recall these arguments being rehearsed in Accurascale and other announcements? 
 

I think anyone pre-paying a small company for something like this understands the potential risks to their cash, and makes their decisions on that basis. Each company has their own reputations and track records and that might assist in such decisions. 

Two things.  Firstly in this case we havemodels from two different concerns going head-to-head.  Thus the buyer will have a choice and it then depends entirely on the buyer what values he/she places into their choice.  I don't like pre-ordering unknown quantities and I definitely don't agree with paying in advance - if a company can't afford to fund its own model development process with sufficient belief in their product I'm blowed if I'm going to lend them the money to do it.  And that's without the possibility of backing the wrong horse as might be the case here.

 

As for small companies it seems that plenty of people were happy to give theirs to a company which foundered - despite hinted warnings.  I don't compare others with DJM but unless you can see the company's accounts the risk is there (and if you cam see them you should always try to read between the lines). 

 

I am prepraed however to pre-order in advance to make sure of getting something which might be subject to strong demand but on the proviso I can say 'no' when it arrives if it's not as it should be.  But that is without paying upfront - for the reason I identified above.  I did  pre-order some of the first batch of Accurascale's 21 tonners with pre-payment because that was the only way at that time to buy them and they had a very good track record.  My most recent batches came via one of my regular retailers and were pre-ordered (they're a known product so no worries) and I paid for them when I collected them.  My next order of A/S wagons are coming via the same route - I'll pay on collection and some Rapido wagons come via the same source..

[Michael Hodgson]

I think it is high time we all stopped treating Accurascale as a new boy/small manufacturer.

They have established a good reputation for accuracy, fair trading policies and value for money, and they seem to be producing new models at a faster rate than the longer established brands, with perhaps more vairations in sub-class deatils, livery etc.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

22 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Personally I wonder what goes on, based on the fact that pretty much every new loco thread (going back years) has wide differences in reported hauling power / slow speed running. Less prevalent in Bachmann threads then other manufacturers I would say though.

There we see what the brands are up against, the customer base has no quality standard! The capability of whatever is being used as a power supply, the connections and wiring to the rails, the state of those rails, the design and construction of the layout, any rolling stock used in testing, how much running the loco has had, and 'attitude' all factor in the assessment.

 

I went to see a nearby correspondent on ye olde MRE mag edited by Pat Hammond around 2006, whose complaint was that a particular model had very poor traction and was a reluctant starter, yet mine and others did all that was expected. Took my own example of this model and DCC system. The layout was a 12'  end to end on average 1 in 75 gradient, the stock would not roll down gradient, and the power supply was an ancient Triang controller. His loco performed exactly as reported. Mine got away more briskly (it had hours of running under its belt) but achieved nothing like speed.

 

Substituted my DCC system, and my loco performed as expected, albeit still hampered by the 'no roll' train on the gradient. Measured what the Triang controller could deliver and it was very down on current, dropped to about 8V when asked for 150mA; clapped out rectifier most likely.

 

Attitude: wouldn't think of replacing the controller, it was 'adequate for his purposes', was happy to true up the layout construction to achieve net level (he had been surprised to find such a gradient) didn't see much value in having his stock free rolling.

 

None of this is by any means exclusive to model railways. For many years I went about the world as required, troubleshooting for my employer when major clients (usually with well qualified staff) had complaints that the local service agents could not rectify; and finding very simple underlying problems, which were readily fixed (albeit often involving quite a lot of cash). Some acted on the information gladly and all was well, others very reluctant to act on the suggestions.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think it is high time we all stopped treating Accurascale as a new boy/small manufacturer.

This is a deeply small 'c' conservative hobby. Bachmann only lost this label when the likes of Dapol and ViTrains kicked off in RTR OO!

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

What's wrong with accepting a simple mistake stating brushless instead of coreless?

Well as so much of their initial video offering was very inadequately researched maybe we should be kind and accept yet another error?  The critical question is where will such errors stop - after the 'fully working valvegear' on 'Bellerophon' (which was clearly going to be nigh on impossibe to achieve because of the layout of the valvegear) we now get brushless instead of coreless.  Is it down to haste,  lack of thought, lack of research, sheer sloppiness,  or what?

 

KR alas do themselves more harm with some of their howlers and weird english (e.g. 'we would like to make' in an ad advertising something which they were selling), than any comments on the web are ever likely to do to them.  Simple messages many of us learnt back in the 'quality management era'  - 'get it right first time' and 'under promise but over deliver'.

[MidlandRed]

I think, personally, we should cut KR some slack, as it were. They are making models, generally that no one else is likely to (although not the case with the WD 2-10-0 - KR has said it’s been on this for about a year, so not a sudden whim). It does appear things are improving in respect of points of accuracy, and taking on board comments made during development. It all augers well for us avid purchasers of model railway product 🙂

Edited December 19, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Steamport Southport]

Well I'm still watching with interest. 

 

Maybe one model will be more suitable for me than the other, maybe neither will be. Isn't that kind of the point of threads such as this?

 

 

 

Jason

[jjb1970]

I think two things are being conflated, what we think of KR and this 2-10-0. What people think of KR is one thing, how a model should be judged is another. I think models should be reviewed and assessed on an equal footing. If people don't want to support a business or like another business that's fine but a model is a model.

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think two things are being conflated, what we think of KR and this 2-10-0. What people think of KR is one thing, how a model should be judged is another. I think models should be reviewed and assessed on an equal footing. If people don't want to support a business or like another business that's fine but a model is a model.

 

Spot on. This thread is to discuss the model, not the company making it. That way leads to yet another rabbit hole, and a thread with no value to anyone..

[adb968008]

I wonder if we will see a Greek version of the Lambda Beta class

 

 

The international versions of the 2-8-0 WD : Dutch.. multiple versions made, plus Egypt, Hong Kong were all quite popular. The TCDD 8F Hornby made is like gold dust.

 

[jjb1970]

Given that KR have seemed happy to do obscure left field prototypes and fantasy liveries I'm guessing they're the sort of company who would be up for the overseas versions. However, I'm not sure they'd model the differences, as that's quite expensive, probably more likely to repaint the regular model. However I'd love to be proved wrong. Such models are more likely to sell to UK (or other OO modellers/collectors) given the scale disparity but I think there is a market for them.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Given that KR have seemed happy to do obscure left field prototypes and fantasy liveries I'm guessing they're the sort of company who would be up for the overseas versions. However, I'm not sure they'd model the differences, as that's quite expensive, probably more likely to repaint the regular model. However I'd love to be proved wrong. Such models are more likely to sell to UK (or other OO modellers/collectors) given the scale disparity but I think there is a market for them.

The Greek ones were I think ultimately the ones with the greatest differences.   Of course Clarktrains have effectively included one of those in their range albeit in its repatriated livery/detail condition with some of the Greek detail no longer included.   

 

The 2-10-0s area reasonable subject for overseas detail and colour but nowhere near as varied as the 2-8-0s which appeared in one or two quite attractive liveries, especially the ones that went to Hong Kong.

[adb968008]

Didnt the Greek ones arrive via Syria, and saw WD service in Egypt prior ?

 

Irecall -reading they were Syrian railways for a while.

Dont forget theres two (and a spare boiler) ex Greece in the UK… 3672 Dame Vera Lynn is a reimport also.

[Wickham Green too]

On 20/12/2023 at 17:06, jjb1970 said:

... Such models are more likely to sell to UK (or other OO modellers/collectors) given the scale disparity ...

Strictly speaking, of course, there IS a scale disparity - but being built to a British loading gauge a 4mm scale model wouldn't look totally ridiculous with 3.5mm scale 'Continental' stuff.

[Steamport Southport]

You can get a H0 version though. DJH do/did one.

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Didnt the Greek ones arrive via Syria, and saw WD service in Egypt prior ?

 

Irecall -reading they were Syrian railways for a while.

Dont forget theres two (and a spare boiler) ex Greece in the UK… 3672 Dame Vera Lynn is a reimport also.

I believe they had originally been in Egypt and then moved to Syria before being bought by the Greek railway.

 

There are indeed two ex Greek WD 2-10-0s in Britain as you said.  One of them has been altered back from its Greek configuration to its original layout and has been given a running number that follows on from the BR numbers;  it is (or certalnly was) in BR black livery.  

 

The other remains in Greek configuration - replicated in the Clarktrains 3-D print - but is in WD livery carrying a WD running number (presumably its original number but I'm not sure on that) and is named, as you said.

[Wickham Green too]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

You can get a H0 version though. DJH do/did one.

Yes, a KR - or Ellis Clarke - one probably WOULD look ridiculous alongside one of those.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Wickham Green too
premature posting !

[Barry O]

I did build a djh HO WD 2-10-0for use on a Greek layout.. it looked tiny when stood beside my 4mm 2-8-0 from a DJH kit.

 

Baz

[adb968008]

25 years ago I was a have a go hero with my djh kit…

 

Tender driven from a Flying Scotsman tender drive chassis, Hornby 9f front end, and a wagon wheel for a pony.

 

its been great for many years but its been sitting in my works gathering dust for a few years now, I had acquired a set of Bachmann WD Wheelsets, to commence an upgrade, but I guess thats on hold.

 

I have a proper Bachmann tender now spare, so I may still go the Greek route on this to join my 3 overseas 8f’s… I have a TCDD Hornby and two Africa 8f’s in WD, complete with cow catchers, pumps and bullet proofed cab roof plates.

Edited December 22, 2023 by adb968008

[Butler Henderson]

Full page ad in the Jan 2024 Model Rail but despite a number of Warley articles no mention of it as far  as I can see. The Clark Railworks one is featured.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Butler Henderson