OO gauge Austerity 2-10-0

[JSpencer]

In their latest newsletter, they announce will be offering Kitchener in "post 1952 LMR Livery" with working headlight and dual Westinghouse air pumps.

 

It then goes on to recognize mentioning their rival, states they think the market is big enough for both and then talks about several of their features in detail (including cost with an emphasis that details which are hidden when running being excluded) with more details to come at a later date.

The remaining details are generally known and can be summed up:

• Firebox flicker (linked to sounds, implying a heavy puff will cause a deeper glow - I don't know if this is constant or just while shoveling coal)
• Easy access 21 pin socket in the tender
• smoke unit option (this is neither oil nor water but their own fluid)
• pre installed speaker ( If the one in the image, I would say a 25mm round type)
• 5 pole brushless motor
• sprung buffers (metal and lightly sprung)

 

I felt that this was probably the best written KR newsletter to date.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

In their latest newsletter, they announce will be offering Kitchener in "post 1952 LMR Livery" with working headlight and dual Westinghouse air pumps.

 

It then goes on to recognize mentioning their rival, states they think the market is big enough for both and then talks about several of their features in detail (including cost with an emphasis that details which are hidden when running being excluded) with more details to come at a later date.

The remaining details are generally known and can be summed up:

• Firebox flicker (linked to sounds, implying a heavy puff will cause a deeper glow - I don't know if this is constant or just while shoveling coal)
• Easy access 21 pin socket in the tender
• smoke unit option (this is neither oil nor water but their own fluid)
• pre installed speaker ( If the one in the image, I would say a 25mm round type)
• 5 pole brushless motor
• sprung buffers (metal and lightly sprung)

 

I felt that this was probably the best written KR newsletter to date.

I was struck by the writing style as well. Completely different and refreshingly free of error. I wonder if the model will be likewise an improvement. I note from the thread about the Leader that the wheels appear to be wrong and, as far as I can see, it’s still covered in rivets.

[maico]

10 hours ago, JSpencer said:

In their latest newsletter, they announce will be offering Kitchener in "post 1952 LMR Livery" with working headlight and dual Westinghouse air pumps.

 

It then goes on to recognize mentioning their rival, states they think the market is big enough for both and then talks about several of their features in detail (including cost with an emphasis that details which are hidden when running being excluded) with more details to come at a later date.

The remaining details are generally known and can be summed up:

• Firebox flicker (linked to sounds, implying a heavy puff will cause a deeper glow - I don't know if this is constant or just while shoveling coal)
• Easy access 21 pin socket in the tender
• smoke unit option (this is neither oil nor water but their own fluid)
• pre installed speaker ( If the one in the image, I would say a 25mm round type)
• 5 pole brushless motor
• sprung buffers (metal and lightly sprung)

 

I felt that this was probably the best written KR newsletter to date.

 

5 pole brushless motor?  The poles are 2,4,6,8 etc. in brushless. 

Do KR mean coreless motor?

[jjb1970]

I suspect a lot will come down to price.

 

The alternative model appears to have a very good specification and they give me a lot of confidence that they will make the effort to get it right. However KR looks to be undercutting them by enough to make price a consideration, and I think that if they get it right their specification will be perfectly fine for most people so many will see it as a better option. The key is to get it right.

[adb968008]

I was impressed with the newsletter too.

 

i’m watching both projects with interest. Ive not made my mind either way, but I was impressed with big berthas running abilities, that was very good.

Edited December 16, 2023 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

14 hours ago, maico said:

 

5 pole brushless motor?  The poles are 2,4,6,8 etc. in brushless. 

Do KR mean coreless motor?

Merely repeating what was written. That said, It looks like a classic iron core can motor in the photo to me though.

[Hilux5972]

Has anyone got a copy of the newsletter available? I can’t find it on the website and I haven’t been receiving any lately. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/12/2023 at 04:20, jjb1970 said:

I suspect a lot will come down to price.

 

The alternative model appears to have a very good specification and they give me a lot of confidence that they will make the effort to get it right. However KR looks to be undercutting them by enough to make price a consideration, and I think that if they get it right their specification will be perfectly fine for most people so many will see it as a better option. The key is to get it right.

The only problem of choosing between the two is whether or not money will be asked for upfront before even a good CAD or, even better, an EP is available.  If I were in the market for one of these and was considering a choice between them I would want to see both in a finished, running, state, before lashing out the best part of 300 quid or more.  

 

So no pre-order and very definitely no pre-payment, not even a so called 'deposit'.  But would that way of financing development suit KR or do they have getting on for =£200,000 stashed away or the wherewithal to finance the borrowing of it?  If you have to pay upfront you've made your choice without being able to compare the two alternatives.  Also on visible progress to date, let alone research time, the Clarktrains' model is somewhere between 6 months and a year ahead of KR's which might be a factor for some buyers

[jjb1970]

I am not a fan of pre-ordering unless the delivery date is very close and it is clear the product is in the actual manufacturing or shipping stage, and much less so if it involves paying up front. It's not about KR, I never got involved with the crowd funding thing that was popular for a while and am not into having commitments hanging over my head with no idea when cheques will be cashed even in the case of companies I have confidence in. I would like a Dublo Deltic and think Hornby will do a good job but I would rather miss out than accumulate commitments. I know FOMO is a big driver for pre-ordering but there's always another model and missing out isn't the end of the world.

[maico]

21 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Merely repeating what was written. That said, It looks like a classic iron core can motor in the photo to me though.

 

Yep. The boys at KR towers should watch this video

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Sorry but that video explains nothing to me.

[MidlandRed]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The only problem of choosing between the two is whether or not money will be asked for upfront before even a good CAD or, even better, an EP is available.  If I were in the market for one of these and was considering a choice between them I would want to see both in a finished, running, state, before lashing out the best part of 300 quid or more.  

 

So no pre-order and very definitely no pre-payment, not even a so called 'deposit'.  But would that way of financing development suit KR or do they have getting on for =£200,000 stashed away or the wherewithal to finance the borrowing of it?  If you have to pay upfront you've made your choice without being able to compare the two alternatives.  Also on visible progress to date, let alone research time, the Clarktrains' model is somewhere between 6 months and a year ahead of KR's which might be a factor for some buyers

These sorts of argument could be placed against other manufacturers - eg Accurascale v Bachmann class 37 - one immediately available, no payment up front, the other positively encouraging payment up front (indeed didn’t make it at all clear pre payment wasn’t the only method until fairly recently) and not available for some time, one a more major and long standing player than the other. 
 

I don’t recall these arguments being rehearsed in Accurascale and other announcements? 
 

I think anyone pre-paying a small company for something like this understands the potential risks to their cash, and makes their decisions on that basis. Each company has their own reputations and track records and that might assist in such decisions. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by MidlandRed

[Fair Oak Junction]

You don't have to pay KR anything up front unless you order direct. Pretty much all their models are also available to pre-order through Rails of Sheffield.

I don't think these Austerity 2-10-0s are yet, but I'm sure they will be.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[McC]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

These sorts of argument could be placed against other manufacturers - eg Accurascale v Bachmann class 37 - one immediately available, no payment up front, the other positively encouraging payment up front (indeed didn’t make it at all clear pre payment wasn’t the only method until fairly recently) and not available for some time, one a more major and long standing player than the other.

 

You can buy an accurascale 37 (and other locos) from us and our retailers right now today and if you want to preorder anything coming in the next year you can do so with absolutely no money down at all. Just to clarify. 

[MichaelM]

As I've mentioned before, I've gone with the alternative for a few reasons. 

 

"Getting it right" was mentioned above.  I totally get rule one etc and the whole fun thing, but "getting it right" doesn't appear to be a primary concern here. Are we going to see a dubdee in Large Logo? Frankly it wouldn't surprise me given the other offerings, which brings me to point 2.

 

Crowdfunding is a poor business model, and from what I can see, they are running rampant with it. I could of course be mistaken, but I suspect that pre orders for the dubdee will pay for a previously announced model.  There are a lot of as yet unreleased items in his catalogue.  I've fallen foul of crowdfunding before and lost everything. 

 

Point 3.  That picture.  Is it meant to be a 5 pole brushless motor?  Really??  Coming hot on the heels of "BR didn't run them', this is worrying.  Have they been so innovative that they've invented an impossible motor? Also, thats a pretty bog standard looking can.  How did his engineers not know this?  This is basic stuff here. It does not bode well. 

 

Point 4.  If they have been on this for over a year, where are the CADs? The announcement with the you tuber was underwhelming at best.  I'm sorry, but this smacks to me of a grab for cash to pay backwards for other projects.  To pay for the dubdee?  Look out for future announcements.

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

These sorts of argument could be placed against other manufacturers - eg Accurascale v Bachmann class 37 - one immediately available, no payment up front, the other positively encouraging payment up front (indeed didn’t make it at all clear pre payment wasn’t the only method until fairly recently) and not available for some time, one a more major and long standing player than the other. 
 

I don’t recall these arguments being rehearsed in Accurascale and other announcements? 
 

I think anyone pre-paying a small company for something like this understands the potential risks to their cash, and makes their decisions on that basis. Each company has their own reputations and track records and that might assist in such decisions. 

I think you just made that all up to support an argument that doesn’t hold water. I have 9 Accurascale locos and another 5 on order, and haven’t had to pre-pay for a single one. 
 

Roy

[jjb1970]

For me, it isn't just about the idea of paying up front,  I just don't like open ended financial commitments and committing to buy stuff based on a written specification and a CAD image. 

 

If I  do pre-order I expect the item to be delivered as per the advertised specification,  free of defects and preferably within the stated delivery schedule. In return I consider a pre-order to be a commitment to be honoured. These things work both ways (or should).

 

So far KR have not given me the confidence to pre-order in terms of product fidelity to prototype and attention to detail, but my feelings about pre-ordering stand even for companies I trust to do it well and where no up front money is needed. Will I still want the item 2 or 3 years down the line? What might my personal circumstances be?

 

If people like pre-ordering then great, that's their choice, and I don't differentiate my view of the concept for KR from other suppliers (other than product confidence). I just prefer the approach now used by Bachmann, announce when models are on their way and if you like them then buy them.

[Bucoops]

11 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

These sorts of argument could be placed against other manufacturers - eg Accurascale v Bachmann class 37 - one immediately available, no payment up front, the other positively encouraging payment up front (indeed didn’t make it at all clear pre payment wasn’t the only method until fairly recently) and not available for some time, one a more major and long standing player than the other. 
 

I don’t recall these arguments being rehearsed in Accurascale and other announcements? 
 

I think anyone pre-paying a small company for something like this understands the potential risks to their cash, and makes their decisions on that basis. Each company has their own reputations and track records and that might assist in such decisions. 

 

The only Accurascale loco I have had to pay up front for was the Locomotion 37 - so not through them anyway - and I see that even Locomotion now offer a £30 deposit for pre-orders. I started buying when the Deltics were announced and that was quite some time ago and not had any issue.

[No Decorum]

20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The only problem of choosing between the two is whether or not money will be asked for upfront before even a good CAD or, even better, an EP is available.  If I were in the market for one of these and was considering a choice between them I would want to see both in a finished, running, state, before lashing out the best part of 300 quid or more.  

 

So no pre-order and very definitely no pre-payment, not even a so called 'deposit'.  But would that way of financing development suit KR or do they have getting on for =£200,000 stashed away or the wherewithal to finance the borrowing of it?  If you have to pay upfront you've made your choice without being able to compare the two alternatives.  Also on visible progress to date, let alone research time, the Clarktrains' model is somewhere between 6 months and a year ahead of KR's which might be a factor for some buyers

So far, GT3 and the Fell have appeared from KR. Both models have been re-run with improvements (whether those improvements have been adequate is a different matter). It seems sensible to me to wait for the second run. Perhaps a Leader without rivets and improved wheels will appear. Perhaps not.

[JSpencer]

12 hours ago, MichaelM said:

Point 3.  That picture.  Is it meant to be a 5 pole brushless motor?  Really??  Coming hot on the heels of "BR didn't run them', this is worrying.  Have they been so innovative that they've invented an impossible motor? Also, thats a pretty bog standard looking can.  How did his engineers not know this?  This is basic stuff here. It does not bode well. 

 

 

While the description of the motor is doubtlessly incorrect (Brushless is a bit of an overkill at this scale), we need to be careful that KR do not mis-interpret this as a "we don't like the motor being shown".

 

Obviously, the main thing that matters is that the motor is reliable, has the grunt to run the model smoothly through the entire speed range and is silent. That comes down to the motor itself regardless of type.

Edited December 18, 2023 by JSpencer

[Jenny Emily]

Don’t read too much into the pictures of the speaker and motor as the motor is out of a GT3 and the speaker is out of a Fell. I’m sure someone is just being creative for purposes of having photographs to use in their emails. 

[cctransuk]

14 hours ago, MichaelM said:

How did his engineers not know this?

 

I think that you may have an over-inflated impression of what KRM consists of, in terms of staffing.

 

CJI.

Edited December 18, 2023 by cctransuk

[jjb1970]

I have often wondered whether model drive trains are truly designed or just put together based on experience.  By which I mean does someone figure out a desired performance and then calculate power, torque etc? Some models are superb runners with excellent performance,  others are less than great. Is it just luck or do some do it properly and others not?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Is it just luck or do some do it properly and others not?

Some very definitely attempt to do it properly. It was a pleasant experience to find that Bachmann's Blue Riband range was equipped with motor and gear train combos that delivered a circa 15% excess over scale maximum speed, resulting in good slow speed control. There have been a couple of misjudgements, the 40:1 reduction in the BR Std 5MT and 2012 V2 resulted in them being slugs unable to make top speed, but these were very much the exception.

 

Happily most RTR OO brands seem to be 'on it' in this respect now; reports of any that are not?

 

(When Bach. launched in 1991/92 their Peak was very much 'old school'. It would comfortably reach a scale 400mph.and might have managed yet more, but came off on the curves before this could be proven, so I never established if it was faster then the Lima EE type 1, once freed of its pick up 'shackles': the rubber adhesion of this item enhanced acceleration and enabled scale for 430 mph to be attained before derailment on the curve intervened...)

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Happily most RTR OO brands seem to be 'on it' in this respect now; reports of any that are not?

 

Personally I wonder what goes on, based on the fact that pretty much every new loco thread (going back years) has wide differences in reported hauling power / slow speed running. Less prevalent in Bachmann threads then other manufacturers I would say though.