KR Models - New Class 40 EOI

[tractionman]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

So, as the CFPS link has been confirmed, why are they doing it? Is there any element of fund raising for the society? Or do the members just want specific preservation era models to buy for themselves? As usual with KR Models there are more questions than answers, and the whole announcement seems rushed, with marketing copy not even properly proof read.

 

I have just had an email come (along with other CFPS members presumably) from the CFPS Chairman about the new KRM 40 project and models, from the OP press release I did not see mention of CFPS connection but perhaps it was in there somewhere and I just missed it...

[The Stationmaster]

One point worth bearing in mind about the Robbery and particularly the aftermath involving Jack Mills is that to have been in the railway industry then you would be over 70 now.   And that even applies to those who were in the industry at the time a  collection for him was made through much of the wider railway.  If you're under 70 the incident might well have never touched in any way but if you're over 70 you might well not have known him nor worked at Crewe but you might have been well aware of what had happened to him and made a donation to the collection.

 

If somebody wants to make a model of D326 that is simply - in my view - a personal or  business decision.  But I do think it is thoughtless, if not worse, to very specifically link such a model to the Great Train Robbery as that comes over very much as a means of promoting it by implied notoriety.   Maybe having such a view would be considered old-fashioned by some; maybe memories of a criminal assault, and its appalling aftermath, on a railwayman who was simply doing his everyday job almost 60 years ago will be regarded by some as irrelevant and living in the past?  But that is how some people feel and personally I think the use of implied notoriety to promote any product is pretty near the nadir of decent taste and responsibility (but again maybe that is just me being old-fashioned?).  

 

However I will offer a potential mitigation in the point that KR seem to be as bad in attention to detail in the language in some of their press releases/adverts as they are in developing their models so possibly they didn't mean it to come over in the way we are reading it?

[Mike Harvey]

Meanwhile in a modelling world not far away, collectors of warplanes seem unconcerned with their models being promoted as specific to a pilot/aircrew with a point being made about the number of “kills”. Maybe the families of the dead “kills” would object.  I have often wondered.

 

As regards KR Models, as a N train player, who likes his toys to have a close relationship with the real thing, so no real interest in 00 gauge, on recent performance, I would not trust the KR Class 40 to be a well-researched and executed version anyway, regardless of the “poor taste” promotion. Hopefully the CFPS influence will insist on a quality shape and detail package at the least.

 

 

[Amnesiac]

Putting the GTR stunt to one side, isn't this the first time KR are attempting a model of a desired and well documented locomotive? It's a certainly a departure from the likes of GT3 and the Fell and the influence of the CFPS is certainly a positive step in the right direction for the model. I'd like to see more CAD images but for now with the pressure that will come from modelling this, it will be interesting at the very least to see if they can rise to the demand and quality that a large majority have been wanting.

[pete_mcfarlane]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

One point worth bearing in mind about the Robbery and particularly the aftermath involving Jack Mills is that to have been in the railway industry then you would be over 70 now.   And that even applies to those who were in the industry at the time a  collection for him was made through much of the wider railway.  If you're under 70 the incident might well have never touched in any way but if you're over 70 you might well not have known him nor worked at Crewe but you might have been well aware of what had happened to him and made a donation to the collection.

I'm nowhere near that age, but I can remember railwaymen of an older generation talking about him. And their distaste for how the robbers were viewed as 'folk heroes' having wrecked the driver's health was pretty easy to pick up. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zunnan]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

However I will offer a potential mitigation in the point that KR seem to be as bad in attention to detail in the language in some of their press releases/adverts as they are in developing their models so possibly they didn't mean it to come over in the way we are reading it?

 

I don't have an issue with producing the more notorious locomotives, up to a certain point they were just normal everyday locomotives until events play out. For example, Hornby did the Black 5 (45274 (R4353)) which turned over at Sutton Coldfield, killing 17. But the locomotive itself carried on in service for 12 more years, and it is in post accident condition which Hornby has produced it. I consider subjects like this to be a historical record, certainly in no poorer taste than can be found in modelling military subjects which were used in anger. What I find in lesser taste is using such events to promote a product. I hope there lies a motive to give a donation to related charities, that would at least reduce the sour taste of using the GTR to promote their proposed model.

 

After trying to converse with them over Big Bertha, I'm waiting for their obligatory 'can you provide evidence' retort regarding quite significant loco details. Being rather brutal about it, I wouldn't trust them to realise there is more than one nose end variant at this point.

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I've put my thoughts on choosing to do D236 (sic) on their facebook post.

 

5 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

But it’s ok for Bachmann to do a model of a locomotive involved in the Harrow disaster that actually killed people? 

 

Harrow and was an accident. The Great Train Robbery was an on purpose act by a gang of criminals. 

 

Bachmann did not use Harrow as a marketing tool. KR Models is using the GTR as a marketing tool.

 

 

[298]

5 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

It’s not the locomotives fault though is it. And does no one remember the Luton Model clubs diorama recreation in 7mm? Theirs had figures, lights and sound and depicted the moment that the robbery actually took place. That’s worse than just a locomotive. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/miniature-great-train-robbery-diorama-3400309

 

I was in two minds whether to go to a show a few years ago, then upon checking the layout list and seeing that made me decide not to. Free country with open forms of expression and speech and all that, but it's not something I'd want to pay to see.

 

The real loco was quickly scrapped upon withdrawal, to avoid souvenir hunters. I vaguely recall a hoo-ha a couple of years later over someone claiming to be selling the locos power handle, but that was proven to be from another loco.

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

However I will offer a potential mitigation in the point that KR seem to be as bad in attention to detail in the language in some of their press releases/adverts as they are in developing their models so possibly they didn't mean it to come over in the way we are reading it?

 

I suspect this may have hit a nail on the head. Their communication skills haven't impressed, this may well be just a case of poor wording.

 

I really don't wish anything bad on KR and I really hope they make a good job of the Leader. However, based on their performance to date my advice for anyone wanting a 40 would be to wait and see how it ends up before parting with any cash. If it's good, buy it. If it's another KR Fell mess then the Bachmann model is still a good model. 

[96701]

27 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I suspect this may have hit a nail on the head. Their communication skills haven't impressed, this may well be just a case of poor wording.

 

I really don't wish anything bad on KR and I really hope they make a good job of the Leader. However, based on their performance to date my advice for anyone wanting a 40 would be to wait and see how it ends up before parting with any cash. If it's good, buy it. If it's another KR Fell mess then the Bachmann model is still a good model. 

That's what I'm going to do, so no completion of an EOI for me.

[Halvarras]

4 hours ago, John M Upton said:

The nearest a RTR manufacturer got to actually producing a GTR Class 40 was Lima who did 40126 in BR Blue which nobody noticed.

 

I noticed, and I did wonder 'why that one?' when there were 19 others they could have done instead. Just chosen at random? Hmm....

My first Class 40 sighting was D218 'Carmania' at Stafford on 2/11/69, the next day I saw a few more at Crewe and the day after that a couple at Derby, one of which was D326 which rolled through light engine. I was only 16 at the time but recognised its notoriety immediately. It was still in green livery but had gained full yellow ends by then.

IMHO the majority reaction on here to KRM's choice would probably be different if the crime had not involved violence with a fatal outcome, and the gang had simply made off with their haul (admittedly leaving traumatised train staff in their wake) but I too am not happy with their publicity stance and think that, like Lima, they had 19 others to choose from - why not do one of those and let owners renumber it if they really want the GTR loco?

I wouldn't, but then I am not in the market for a Class 40 anyway - in fact it's the only First Generation Type 4 I don't have a model of as I can't identify a need for one (and believe me, up to now I've been very good at justifying model purchases!) - so I'll leave the discussion regarding a preferred 4mm Class 40 manufacturer to those who are in the market......🤐🙂

 

[ikks]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One point worth bearing in mind about the Robbery and particularly the aftermath involving Jack Mills is that to have been in the railway industry then you would be over 70 now.   And that even applies to those who were in the industry at the time a  collection for him was made through much of the wider railway.  If you're under 70 the incident might well have never touched in any way but if you're over 70 you might well not have known him nor worked at Crewe but you might have been well aware of what had happened to him and made a donation to the collection.

 

If somebody wants to make a model of D326 that is simply - in my view - a personal or  business decision.  But I do think it is thoughtless, if not worse, to very specifically link such a model to the Great Train Robbery as that comes over very much as a means of promoting it by implied notoriety.   Maybe having such a view would be considered old-fashioned by some; maybe memories of a criminal assault, and its appalling aftermath, on a railwayman who was simply doing his everyday job almost 60 years ago will be regarded by some as irrelevant and living in the past?  But that is how some people feel and personally I think the use of implied notoriety to promote any product is pretty near the nadir of decent taste and responsibility (but again maybe that is just me being old-fashioned?).  

 

However I will offer a potential mitigation in the point that KR seem to be as bad in attention to detail in the language in some of their press releases/adverts as they are in developing their models so possibly they didn't mean it to come over in the way we are reading it?

No Mike, your views are not old fashioned. There are some of us that were around at the time of this horrible crime and deplore the actions of the vermin that basically ended any normality to Jack Mills subsequently short life. The fact that much of the Press treated it as an almost " Robin Hood " type event, disgusted me then and still does today.

Mike

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Meanwhile in a modelling world not far away, collectors of warplanes seem unconcerned with their models being promoted as specific to a pilot/aircrew with a point being made about the number of “kills”. Maybe the families of the dead “kills” would object.  I have often wondered.

 

 

A very fair point. I make models of military vehicles and aircraft and it's true that those hobbies see no issue with building models and dioramas of machinery and people very much on the basis of wartime records. Warship modellers love modelling Hood and Bismarck despite the fact both were destroyed and went down with most of their crews (almost all in the case of Hood), I've seen several models of the Enola Gay and many tank enthusiasts seem obsessed with Michael Wittmann's Tiger despite him having used it to send lots of other young men to an early death and he himself meeting a sticky end when it was blown up. The part of that hobby that has always troubled me is the way many view aircraft gun camera film as entertainment, when people watch those gun camera films of aircraft being blown to bits they're watching the crews being killed. Even as a military modeller I find something wrong about watching that as entertainment.

[toby_tl10]

3 hours ago, PjKing1 said:

I did ask our friends at Accurascale would they ever consider a cl40 but their reply was that as much as they would love to do one someone (presumably KR) already had one in the pipeline.

To suggest Accurascale is intimidated by KR is an... let's say "interesting" idea. AS is at least 2 tiers above. If someone else has a 40 in the pipeline, my guess is Bachmann, who upgraded their 20, 37 and 47. Plus, an EOI isn't really "in the pipeline", is it?

[Bon Accord]

16 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

IMHO the majority reaction on here to KRM's choice would probably be different if the crime had not involved violence with a fatal outcome,

 

 

The GTR did not have a fatal outcome.

[AY Mod]

5 hours ago, aureol40012 said:

It’s one of the top 3 most popular diesels ever,

 

Please quote your reference source for this.

[sjp23480]

11 minutes ago, Bon Accord said:

 

The GTR did not have a fatal outcome.

The driver Jack Mills suffered brain damage after being assaulted and never recovered.  He was medically retired a few years later.

 

But that's alright.

[SHMD]

I must admit to wanting AS doing the whistler but I wish KR well.

 

I will, however, want to see good reviews of it before even considering parting with any cash.

(I really don't want to receive a 40 on one side and a Baby Deltic on the other!)

 

 

Kev.

 

[hmrspaul]

36 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

I noticed, and I did wonder 'why that one?' when there were 19 others they could have done instead. Just chosen at random?

 

Possibly because there are plenty of photos of this one, compared to other early 40s. Photographers when they were introduced were paying all their attention to the outgoing steam engines and even these large diesels aren't so well covered. 

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/class40

[F-UnitMad]

36 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

make models of military vehicles and aircraft and it's true that those hobbies see no issue with building models and dioramas of machinery and people very much on the basis of wartime records.

With military subjects there is no getting away from their primary purpose. But would any model aircraft manufacturer produce models of, say, the actual airliners involved in the 9/11 attacks, and purposely use the links to that event as part of their marketing strategy for the models?

I don't know, but I would sincerely hope not.

 

I did see the Luton Club's GTR diorama. There was a lot of information on display with it, but I still wonder if it really should have been done. There are better ways of raising money for charity.

[Halvarras]

30 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

 

Possibly because there are plenty of photos of this one, compared to other early 40s. Photographers when they were introduced were paying all their attention to the outgoing steam engines and even these large diesels aren't so well covered. 

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/class40

 

Certainly true of the 1960s green era, but I was referring to the blue TOPS-era 40126 as modelled by Lima (they could have produced D326 in green but didn't - OTOH they did D334 instead, and 337 in GFYE).

['CHARD]

4 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

Certainly true of the 1960s green era, but I was referring to the blue TOPS-era 40126 as modelled by Lima (they could have produced D326 in green but didn't - OTOH they did D334 instead, and 337 in GFYE).

 

TBH, in original livery the split-box 40s only differed in the last two digits of their respective numbers, so a manufacturer may as well pick one at random, unless they perceive one has 'celebrity' status, because ex-works they're otherwise indistinguishable.  

[Neil]

I can see why some take offence but the Great Train Robbery has been the subject of films and TV documentaries; all made for entertainment. Over on youtube there are numerous air accident videos analysing just how and why accidents and incidents happen; it becomes hard to work out where genuine interest stops and ghoulish voyeurism starts. My guess is that whether offence is taken or not depends on how close to the event you feel.  

['CHARD]

At the end of the day, it's about profit and ethics, and where anyone stands on these two curves is where the lines intersect, and that demarcates your philosophy I guess.  I stand on the side of it's bad taste to market something with a ghoulish tag-line, and the GTR tag is being used here; it's not a Robin Hood style fairy story, so personally it's not for me.  

 

 

[And before anyone thinks I am being over-sensitive, I have a Class 24 modelled as D5122 which was destroyed, with total loss of traincrew at Castlecary ScR in September 1968.  I don't have it because of this tragedy, but because it was a Waverley route performer in the period May - August of that year. It is in every way innocuous, and you have to know what you're looking for to trace this accident.]

[griffgriff]

I feel I should apologise for having a model of 47 299