Hornby, A Model World. Series 2.

[Steamport Southport]

48 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I often wonder if some of us, (and I wouldn't exclude SK, or myself, from the group), automatically assume that today's kids will be inspired by the same kind of things we think we would if we were young today, when our take on it is heavily skewed by our earlier influences.... 

 

Maybe "train set" development should be more heavily influenced by those with more recent memory of occupying the target market.

 

John

 

Have you tried asking them? I'm pretty sure Hornby has at all those events they attend. Not just model railway exhibitions.

 

It's the little engines that Hornby make. That's what the kids ask for. Think of which are the popular engines from TTTE and such, it's always the small engines like Thomas, Percy, Toby, Duck, Bill, Ben, etc. rather than Gordon and Henry.

 

There does seem to be a bit of snobbishness towards Smokey Joe and friends, but it all comes from the older generation I'm afraid. Or those that have slight grown out of it and now think "it's for babies".

 

My first proper train set was the first release of 101 with a few wagons. In the other presents was three GWR coaches and a bit of extra track. Soon put on a basic baseboard. That was a model railway in my mind.

 

That's what Hornby are trying to get people doing with the TT. Too many people are questioning how it affects them personally. It doesn't unless you embrace it. If not, move along plenty of other things available.

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Have you tried asking them? I'm pretty sure Hornby has at all those events they attend. Not just model railway exhibitions.

 

It's the little engines that Hornby make. That's what the kids ask for. Think of which are the popular engines from TTTE and such, it's always the small engines like Thomas, Percy, Toby, Duck, Bill, Ben, etc. rather than Gordon and Henry.

 

There does seem to be a bit of snobbishness towards Smokey Joe and friends, but it all comes from the older generation I'm afraid. Or those that have slight grown out of it and now think "it's for babies".

 

My first proper train set was the first release of 101 with a few wagons. In the other presents was three GWR coaches and a bit of extra track. Soon put on a basic baseboard. That was a model railway in my mind.

 

That's what Hornby are trying to get people doing with the TT. Too many people are questioning how it affects them personally. It doesn't unless you embrace it. If not, move along plenty of other things available.

 

 

Jason

 

Funny how there seems to be very little in the way of small engines for TT yet, then....

 

[Ravenser]

21 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Funny how there seems to be very little in the way of small engines for TT yet, then....

 

 

Two Pacifics and an 08...   33% in the first batch. But then small scales tend to skew towards big prototypes , because the model is physically larger, and needs to be.  My thumb is larger than the NGS Hunslet in N.

 

(There is both a push and a pull towards doing big modern stuff in N.  Firstly the modern scene becomes unmanageably large in 4mm: almost every vehicle seems to be 12" long. Secondly in N - or potentially TT - the big vehicles are much more convenient to handle than traditional steam stock . A wooden PO on N is not quite "grain of rice" size and weight but it feels like it's well on the way...) A 66 is about as big as a 14xx + trailer. In N gauge, that's an advantage for the 66. In 4mm , it's a problem..)

 

However Hornby have had a good run with new small locos  in OO - Sentinel, Peckett, (two flavours each),  Ruston, J50, Terrier (not to mention Rocket and Lion).  From older tooling they have the Pug, 14xx, J94, Jinty and in the Smokey Joe series , CR pug, KGV , 101,  06 and the recent generic Bagnall diesel. I'm struggling to remember many small locos from Bachmann apart from an 08 and the 03/04 they inherited from Mainline - and I've omitted the 08 from the Hornby list as a bit big...

 

These things are small enough to drop below £100, and therefore cheap enough to become an impulse purchase. That's how both my W4 Peckett and Ruston 48DS happened : too cute to resist and on sale at an affordable price, and both have  proved to be very  effective motive power for the Boxfile. These small locos have been excellent sellers for Hornby

 

The canard that "Hornby only do big green kettles" is frequently repeated without looking at what they have actually made and sold. They've not had any commercial failures with their small locos 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Two Pacifics and an 08...   33% in the first batch. But then small scales tend to skew towards big prototypes , because the model is physically larger, and needs to be. 

 

Listed on Hornby's website for 2023:

 

A1

A3 

A4

Princess-Coronation

HST

Class 50

Class 66 

 

Class 08

 

So one small loco out of a total of eight, 12.5%.

 

I rest my case.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Well I finally got to see the first episode of the new series in the repeat on 'Yesterday' this evening, quite enjoyable.  

 

Very much as I expected it to be with the strong message that TT120 is wonderful (also expected of course) although that also means that 00 isn't which could be somewhat dangerous to a good chunk of their business. I think that if I was SK I would be slightly more wary of claiming, in effect, to be the person wholly responsible for the introduction of the new scale and range at Hornby because if it has the wrong impact on Hornby's bottom line he's lined himself up very publicly for not being there in a future series.   

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Well I finally got to see the first episode of the new series in the repeat on 'Yesterday' this evening, quite enjoyable.  

 

Very much as I expected it to be with the strong message that TT120 is wonderful (also expected of course) although that also means that 00 isn't which could be somewhat dangerous to a good chunk of their business. I think that if I was SK I would be slightly more wary of claiming, in effect, to be the person wholly responsible for the introduction of the new scale and range at Hornby because if it has the wrong impact on Hornby's bottom line he's lined himself up very publicly for not being there in a future series.   

 

SK must be up around retiring age anyway, so I wonder if he's always intended TT:120 to be his swansong/legacy project?  

 

John

[MyRule1]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

SK must be up around retiring age anyway, so I wonder if he's always intended TT:120 to be his swansong/legacy project?  

 

John

There is the age you get your pension and the time you retire they are not the same thing. Having a retiring age in the UK can be seen as being discrimination.

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

There is the age you get your pension and the time you retire they are not the same thing. Having a retiring age in the UK can be seen as being discrimination.

Indeed, some people "live for work" but, unfortunately, many of them don't last long when they stop doing it. At retirement events in both of my "career halves" one could (more often than not) spot the ones who wouldn't from their lack of outside interests.

 

However, plenty of others, who want to retire, are forced by economic circumstance to continue working until they become incapable, which is at least as bad.

 

After joining the railway at 40, I loved work (most of the time 😀), but I am one of those lucky people with enough to keep me amused/alive when that disappeared.

 

There was no way I was going to up-sticks and take on a new mortgage (even if I could have got one) in a more expensive area where I didn't fancy living, at the age of 60! 

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Listed on Hornby's website for 2023:

 

A1

A3 

A4

Princess-Coronation

HST

Class 50

Class 66 

 

Class 08

 

So one small loco out of a total of eight, 12.5%.

 

I rest my case.

 

 

But in OO 2023 is a "marking time" programe because 2022 is running late

 

In TT we've just been told :

Quote

Posted 15 hours ago

Amongst the things I gleaned from the video:

.......

- they have some wagons on the way soon too.

- the Class 43 will have working lights and should be in production soon.

- Class 66 is still being designed so sounds like later on in the year

- Duchess seems to be some way away still (maybe end of the year or next year?)

.........

- An 0-6-0T is ready for tooling and another is coming soon. Sounds like a terrier might be coming sometime, not sure if that's one of the ones coming soon (an Austerity 0-6-0ST and a GWR pannier have also been mentioned elsewhere).

.....

- Some surprise products and bundles are in the works.

......

- Southern locos will come too.

 

 

So in the real world , the Duchess is slipping and will be out well after the LMS coaches.

 

The 66 isn't quite finalised and seems to be slipping a little

 

One 0-6-0 has gone to tooling already, and another one seems to be ahead of both the 66 and Duchess. (It's possible that the 0-6-0 in tooling is the 08 , but the impression seems to be it's steam. They've shown a working 08 running round the layout already)

 

Reality may be a little different from a quick look at the website. In particular small locos in TT seem to be progressing faster than the catalogue listing suggests. It looks like the proportion of small locos in TT may be more like 25%-33% (2 or 3 out of 8 or 9)

 

But , as I said earlier , small locos in a small scale are inherently challenging, so smaller scales will favour bigger prototypes.  Hornby have already said they can';t get sound into a TT 08...,

 

Using the TT listings to argue for a big loco prejudice at Hornby is misleading. How many small locos do Farish do in  N? Not that many.

 

Hornby have done quite a few small locos in OO, they've done them well, and they have sold. If they were genuiniely only interested in big named locos the Pecketts, the Sentinels and the little Ruston would never have happened

 

 

[spamcan61]

12 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

So in the real world , the Duchess is slipping and will be out well after the LMS coaches.

 

The 66 isn't quite finalised and seems to be slipping a little

 

 

The official release date for the Duchess , 66 and 50 was pushed back to 'Winter 2024-2025' a few weeks back. The 08 is showing as 'Spring 2023' so well ahead of those 3.

[Dunsignalling]

However Hornby's evidently chaotic release schedule will eventually pan out, and whether anything might leap-frog anything else,  are matters that none of us can do more than guess at. Unless, of course, one is on the inside.

 

I saw the US equivalent of a Wickham Trolley in N with DCC sound that could be heard from the other side of the village hall four or five years ago. It used an i-phone speaker iirc, which are readily obtainable.

 

Any idea that sound can't be accommodated into an 08 in TT:120 with a volume sixteen or or twenty times greater, is utter rubbish. I bet there are N gauge examples happily growling around.

 

It might be sufficiently labour-intensive to put the price up unacceptably, but that's a completely different matter.    

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

The official release date for the Duchess , 66 and 50 was pushed back to 'Winter 2024-2025' a few weeks back. The 08 is showing as 'Spring 2023' so well ahead of those 3.

 

From what is being said , I think the Duchess is the one that will slip all the way back to Winter 2024/5

 

We've already seen a finished 08 running round Hornby's layout at Warley - given that and the release date it's hard to credit that it could be going for tooling now . So presumably it won't be one of the two 0-6-0s in question

 

Before Christmas , when the release dates changed , SK was quoted as expecting the 66 to go for tooling after Christmas and hopeful release dates would come forward . It looks as if the 66 has missed that target, but may be with us in a year or so, with the 50 behind it.

 

That a pair of 0-6-0s have moved ahead of these larger locos in the queue does cut against the "narrative" that Hornby are only interested in big green namers

 

 

24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I saw the US equivalent of a Wickham Trolley in N with DCC sound that could be heard from the other side of the village hall four or five years ago. It used an i-phone speaker iirc, which are readily obtainable.

 

Any idea that sound can't be accommodated into an 08 in TT:120 with a volume sixteen or or twenty times greater, is utter rubbish. I bet there are N gauge examples happily growling around.

 

It might be sufficiently labour-intensive to put the price up unacceptably, but that's a completely different matter.    

 

John

 

Apparently the issue is that the new TXS decoder is a little too large

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

From what is being said , I think the Duchess is the one that will slip all the way back to Winter 2024/5

 

We've already seen a finished 08 running round Hornby's layout at Warley - given that and the release date it's hard to credit that it could be going for tooling now . So presumably it won't be one of the two 0-6-0s in question

 

Before Christmas , when the release dates changed , SK was quoted as expecting the 66 to go for tooling after Christmas and hopeful release dates would come forward . It looks as if the 66 has missed that target, but may be with us in a year or so, with the 50 behind it.

 

That a pair of 0-6-0s have moved ahead of these larger locos in the queue does cut against the "narrative" that Hornby are only interested in big green namers

 

 

 

Apparently the issue is that the new TXS decoder is a little too large

 

Sounds like Hornby might have some difficulty keeping the TT:120 early adopters spending if there's a gap opening up in the release schedules..... 

 

Lucky they have OO to fall back on.😉

 

Oh, wait, they seem to have "mislaid" a year there, too.  

 

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

But , as I said earlier , small locos in a small scale are inherently challenging, so smaller scales will favour bigger prototypes.  Hornby have already said they can';t get sound into a TT 08...,

 

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Any idea that sound can't be accommodated into an 08 in TT:120 with a volume sixteen or or twenty times greater, is utter rubbish. I bet there are N gauge examples happily growling around.

 

It might be sufficiently labour-intensive to put the price up unacceptably, but that's a completely different matter.    

 

John

It cannot be that hard to put sound in a TT 08 - people were doing it already with minor cutting of the diecast Farish N body until last Spring when Farish released the N18 sound fitted 08s.  If anything in TT, you have more space for the stay alives....

Edited January 20, 2023 by woodenhead

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Any idea that sound can't be accommodated into an 08 in TT:120 with a volume sixteen or or twenty times greater, is utter rubbish.

 

I'm sure it could be done but Hornby's Triplex Bluetooth system will need bags'o'space for just the wiring.

 

[Huw Griffiths]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'm sure it could be done but Hornby's Triplex Bluetooth system will need bags'o'space for just the wiring.

 

 

Cue somebody getting out a soldering iron to shorten the wires and redo the solder joints?

 

Seriously though, the key issue is likely to be the components and PCBs.

 

If they can somehow be shoehorned into the available space, I'm sure someone will find a way of doing the wiring. If the parts don't fit into the available space, it won't happen.

 

It would be interesting to see if anyone at Hornby has made this work - and been filmed doing the work. If they have, they might be in a position to put footage of this somewhere on the web.

 

 

[JohnR]

Trying to fit all the wiring in is always my bugbear. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm not sure that a Bluetooth system exclusive to one manufacturer is a good idea. There is at least one other Bluetooth based system out there (Blunami). At the moment, it's irrelevant for TT:120 but if other manufacturers come in, that might no longer be the case. Does anybody have the vision of Lenz to create an open standard others can use?

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I'm not sure that a Bluetooth system exclusive to one manufacturer is a good idea. There is at least one other Bluetooth based system out there (Blunami). At the moment, it's irrelevant for TT:120 but if other manufacturers come in, that might no longer be the case. Does anybody have the vision of Lenz to create an open standard others can use?

So long as Hornby's TXS chips fit other makes (which, it appears, they do) the only effect will be to tether customers to their H&M control system, which probably suits their purpose nicely.

 

John

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Except that on the recent TT Talk they said they will only be producing the downloadable sound files for their own locos—at least for the time being.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

SK must be up around retiring age anyway, so I wonder if he's always intended TT:120 to be his swansong/legacy project?  

 

John

One press source says that he joined Hornby 'in the early 1970s' (although the present company - as a private company - didn't exist until the early 1980s and only became a PLC in 1986).  I know that he had previously worked for Hammant and Morgan so Hornb was not hos first job.  So with possibly c. 48 - 50 years with Hornby plus previous employment with H&M you could come up with a potential anywhere between late 60s and early 70s.  nit that it is very relevant nowadays (except for State Pension Age) with no fixed retirement age.

 

Not at all unusual for people to work into their late 60s or their 70s.  And if you can manage a job to your employer's satisfaction and are getting personal satisfaction from doing it I can't see anything wrong with that. 

[Mel_H]

On 12/01/2023 at 16:11, MyRule1 said:

Could easily have been edited out, only someone like @AY Mod who saw the original would-be able to tell us and he has probably got better things to spend his time on than site through it again.

 

His summary at in the first post is spot on and how the howler at the end got OK'd by Hornby amazed me. That if the one I saw is the same the Andy refers to.

The 'skidding Scotsman' is one - the 'howler' is Clan Line on the 'turntable' - the tender's back to front (it's happened before, in an advert (not by a manufacturer) IIRC

[Mel_H]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

So long as Hornby's TXS chips fit other makes (which, it appears, they do) the only effect will be to tether customers to their H&M control system, which probably suits their purpose nicely.

 

John

 

Probably thread drift, but my understanding is that you'll need a (free) App on a phone or tablet to run the decoder, but it can go in any loco, and the app is free.

 

The main plus points seem to be:

 

1. It gives access to DCC without need to buy a 'throttle' - it's just £35 for a chip

2. Then all you need to do is connect the power to the track, chuck in a stay alive and you don't need to worry about dirty pick-ups interrupting sound or digital instructions via the rails. 

3. You can use your DCC loco on a friend's DCC layout, even if they are running trains using their own controller at the same time (such as Lenz etc)

4. You don't need to understand anything about CV programming as any settings changes are made in the app, so you don't have to work out bit settings etc

5. You can upload different sounds or re-programme the chip (some sound chips from some manufacturers can't be re-blown and for most people, you need to be at a high-level to re-blow your own chips.

 

I think it's an exciting, logical step. Question is, is the next step to do away with the power to the rails, and have inbuilt re-chargeable batteries, so the loco works on its own. We already have 'mag light' wands and button batteries for coaches. This day can't be too far away, surely?

[Darius43]

 

8 hours ago, Mel_H said:

you don't need to worry about dirty pick-ups interrupting sound or digital instructions via the rails. 

Not quite, as the power that makes the chip work (respond to instructions and emit sounds) still comes from the rails.  The stay alive will help but eventually dirty track will still bring everything to a halt.  The need to have clean track has not been banished.

Putting independent power packs in the locos would be a logical step, with Bluetooth taking the place of traditional radio control.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited January 21, 2023 by Darius43

[Chris M]

Going back to the programme, I understand SK is about 70 years old. From what I saw of him in a few (mostly) business meetings during his earlier stint with Hornby he really is as genuinely enthusiastic about Hornby and model railways as he appears to be on TV. I certainly don't agree with some of the things that SK says and does but I have to give him credit for being involved with the programme and trying to do good for the hobby. I do think of him as more of a train set man than a serious modeller but that's ok, we are all different.