Bachmann Class 30/31

[YT-1300]

42 minutes ago, Legend said:

Still perplexed by this .  I would have thought that although under development for years Bachmann would have pulled the plug when Accurascale announced theirs 2 years ago. The expensive part was tooling , so manufacturers say , which given that this is only now reaching market ,probably only happened after the Accurascale announcement , so I’d have pulled the plug then . If Kader resources are so precious why waste it on a 30/31. Most people will have already committed to the Accurascale one and unlikely to change  .  This is just a waste of resources. Unlike Hornby ,which have a following outside  the mainstream hobby ,Bachmann don’t have such a following and will be known of by enthusiasts in much the same way as Accurascale, who have already got the orders . So pickings for a 30/31 must be lean . Meanwhile where is the 25 announced years ago ? Where is it? Wouldn’t they have been better bringing this to the market, both for enthusiasts and their balance sheet . In a similar vein we have the 170 . Bachmann produced it but an update is in abeyance or cancelled …..we don’t know because of vague statements , but it’s preventing others from producing one because the risk of duplication is so high . The dead hand of Bachmann is to the detriment of the hobby . Then there is the 313 . Revolution aren’t upscaling their N one because they’ve told me someone is doing it in OO . Accurascale have confirmed it’s not them that’s making it .I really wonder if it was Bachmann and if that is still the case . If it’s Bachmann then have they taken cold feet over the likely price ? But again wouldn’t you prefer something new against pointless duplication? 

Sorry but I’m viewing this announcement as a complete waste of time . So many other models available to model .  And cynically look at the pricing . Once 15% discount deducted this will bring it to the same price as Accurascale - while we know Bachman. Typically charge top dollar £45 for an OTA or £60 for a mark 1! I wonder how much the 69 where there’s no competition will cost - I bet it won’t be £199 ! 
 

I really don’t know who approved this for production . I appreciate that there may have been man hours invested in the 30/31 but that’s not the point . The point is maximising revenue and given that the 30/31 has competition from Accurascale and Hornby in both Main stream and Railroad form  the decision to progress is mad . It’s not a duplication but a quadruplication , and that’s not including those that are happy with their Airfix and Lima models . Truly baffling and not good for the hobby . 

And you know all this for sure do you?  Have Bachmann told you that?

 

Writing off a large sum of money takes some explaining to the shareholders, and replacing that with another new product only adds more cost, which takes some explaining to the shareholders.

[NBL]

54 minutes ago, Legend said:

Still perplexed by this .  I would have thought that although under development for years Bachmann would have pulled the plug when Accurascale announced theirs 2 years ago. The expensive part was tooling , so manufacturers say , which given that this is only now reaching market ,probably only happened after the Accurascale announcement , so I’d have pulled the plug then . If Kader resources are so precious why waste it on a 30/31. Most people will have already committed to the Accurascale one and unlikely to change  .  This is just a waste of resources. Unlike Hornby ,which have a following outside  the mainstream hobby ,Bachmann don’t have such a following and will be known of by enthusiasts in much the same way as Accurascale, who have already got the orders . So pickings for a 30/31 must be lean . Meanwhile where is the 25 announced years ago ? Where is it? Wouldn’t they have been better bringing this to the market, both for enthusiasts and their balance sheet . In a similar vein we have the 170 . Bachmann produced it but an update is in abeyance or cancelled …..we don’t know because of vague statements , but it’s preventing others from producing one because the risk of duplication is so high . The dead hand of Bachmann is to the detriment of the hobby . Then there is the 313 . Revolution aren’t upscaling their N one because they’ve told me someone is doing it in OO . Accurascale have confirmed it’s not them that’s making it .I really wonder if it was Bachmann and if that is still the case . If it’s Bachmann then have they taken cold feet over the likely price ? But again wouldn’t you prefer something new against pointless duplication? 
 

Sorry but I’m viewing this announcement as a complete waste of time . So many other models available to model .  And cynically look at the pricing . Once 15% discount deducted this will bring it to the same price as Accurascale - while we know Bachman. Typically charge top dollar £45 for an OTA or £60 for a mark 1! I wonder how much the 69 where there’s no competition will cost - I bet it won’t be £199 ! 
 

I really don’t know who approved this for production . I appreciate that there may have been man hours invested in the 30/31 but that’s not the point . The point is maximising revenue and given that the 30/31 has competition from Accurascale and Hornby in both Main stream and Railroad form  the decision to progress is mad . It’s not a duplication but a quadruplication , and that’s not including those that are happy with their Airfix and Lima models . Truly baffling and not good for the hobby . 

Did you think it was a waste of time and resources when Accurascale announced their 31?  Or 37, 50, Deltic or 92?   Or Cavalex with their 56 and 60?  There were already half decent models on the market then.  

 

Funny how no-one seems to have a hissy fit when duplication happens the other way around.

[GordonC]

9 minutes ago, NBL said:

Did you think it was a waste of time and resources when Accurascale announced their 31?  Or 37, 50, Deltic or 92?   Or Cavalex with their 56 and 60?  There were already half decent models on the market then.  

 

Funny how no-one seems to have a hissy fit when duplication happens the other way around.

 

When Accurascale announced there was only the Hornby Class 31 around and they haven't really seemed to pay much attention to it for quite some time that there are still big gaps in what they've produced from tooling thats nearly 20 years old.

 

Bearing in mind Accurascale announce when they've got something to show for it, as in Engineering Prototypes, it wasn't just a CAD drawing so it was obviously well on the way to a finished product turning up. I can only assume that Bachmann must have been at a similar stage at that point and to have spent the big money on tooling already that they needed to continue to recover that.

[nightstar.train]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

The expensive part was tooling , so manufacturers say , which given that this is only now reaching market ,probably only happened after the Accurascale announcement , so I’d have pulled the plug then . If Kader resources are so precious why waste it on a 30/31.

I’m pretty sure that tooling would have already been made by this point. When Accurascale announced their 31 2 years ago they announced it with engineering prototypes. EPs are taken from the tools, by the time you have EPs you’ve made and are committed to the tooling. Minor adjustments can be made, but the bulk of the money has now been spent. It’s been two years and now the Accurascale models are due in the next 3 months. The Bachmann models are also due in the next 3 months. I somehow doubt that Bachmann have an extra speedy development cycle, evidence is very much against it, so I expect that two years ago they were at least as far along as Accurascale and had already made their tooling. Tooling a loco is a mid to high 6 figure investment, you’re not going to throw that in the bin, or weigh it in at the scrap yard for a few hundred quid. So Bachmann have made the best they can of the situation and brought our liveries that AS aren’t so they can share in the 30/31 pie. 

[Ray M]

Are AS or Bachmann doing a skinhead

in Green SYP ?

[97406]

8 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

I’m pretty sure that tooling would have already been made by this point. When Accurascale announced their 31 2 years ago they announced it with engineering prototypes. EPs are taken from the tools, by the time you have EPs you’ve made and are committed to the tooling. Minor adjustments can be made, but the bulk of the money has now been spent. It’s been two years and now the Accurascale models are due in the next 3 months. The Bachmann models are also due in the next 3 months. I somehow doubt that Bachmann have an extra speedy development cycle, evidence is very much against it, so I expect that two years ago they were at least as far along as Accurascale and had already made their tooling. Tooling a loco is a mid to high 6 figure investment, you’re not going to throw that in the bin, or weigh it in at the scrap yard for a few hundred quid. So Bachmann have made the best they can of the situation and brought our liveries that AS aren’t so they can share in the 30/31 pie. 

 

Yes, I think it was very likely a case of 'great minds think alike' and coincidentally, both 31 projects probably started at about the same time.

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, Ray M said:

Are AS or Bachmann doing a skinhead

in Green SYP ?

Hornby R30120.  Available now, new stock at Rails and presumably other retailers.  Easy enough to add a small yellow panel…

[GD]

2 hours ago, 97406 said:

 

Yes, I think it was very likely a case of 'great minds think alike' and coincidentally, both 31 projects probably started at about the same time.

A sensible comment at last, the red stripe 31 looks fantastic, I shall be having at least one of those. 

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

Whilst I can’t speak to the spec and if it is better than the Accurascale one, apart from the auto uncoupler of course, it is different. Bachmann have very sensibly gone for models, in the most part, that Accurascale aren’t producing in their first two runs. Presumably Bachmann had a list of planned variants they wanted to do, and when Accurascale announced theirs two years ago Bachmann were able to pivot and change so as to produce several liveries that AS aren’t. Many on these pages have been delighted with the red stripe rail freight and the Petroleum sector liveries. So they are bringing something extra to the table for modellers. 
 

As to whether or not this will be a success for Bachmann, time will tell. But a quick browse through Rails of Sheffield shows that most of the Sound Fitted Deluxe models are sold out already, and only 4 days after announcement. 

It intrigues me that “most of the Sound Fitted Deluxe models are sold out already”. Bachmann commented that relatively few of that version of the 47 were produced because it was uncertain how many would be sold because of the high price. Bearing in mind the complaints about prices, that caution seemed reasonable at the time. Now it seems that more could have been produced and sold. Expensive or not, a lot of people seem to like the “spinners”.

[spamcan61]

12 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

And you know all this for sure do you?  Have Bachmann told you that?

 

Writing off a large sum of money takes some explaining to the shareholders, and replacing that with another new product only adds more cost, which takes some explaining to the shareholders.

Funnily enough the guy at Bachmann working on the 31 changed jobs and now works for Accurascale, must've been an 'interesting' time for him when AS revealed their 31 to him.

[McC]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

Funnily enough the guy at Bachmann working on the 31 changed jobs and now works for Accurascale, must've been an 'interesting' time for him when AS revealed their 31 to him.

For accuracy our model was well announced and public before that team member joined us. 

[Legend]

14 hours ago, NBL said:

Did you think it was a waste of time and resources when Accurascale announced their 31?  Or 37, 50, Deltic or 92?   Or Cavalex with their 56 and 60?  There were already half decent models on the market then.  

 

Funny how no-one seems to have a hissy fit when duplication happens the other way around.

No because these were steps forward and promising a new generation of models . The Bachmann 31 will be of equivalent standard to Accurascale .

[NBL]

34 minutes ago, Legend said:

No because these were steps forward and promising a new generation of models . The Bachmann 31 will be of equivalent standard to Accurascale .

The Hornby 31,50 and 56 all have working fans and lights which is what people are screaming for,  Finer detail on the new models but that's it.  Still duplication.  The average punter is not as discerning in their purchases.

 

Personally I think the new models from AS and Cavalex and Bachmann's new 20/25/31/37/47 are brilliant, and I wish all the companies, well because duplication can help the hobby, it promotes competition and further development.

 

I want to see a 303 or a pep unit, but I'm not getting my knickers twisted because another 31 has been announced.  There are plenty of other avenues of railway modelling I can, and do, take.

[stewartingram]

13 minutes ago, NBL said:

The Hornby 31,50 and 56 all have working fans and lights which is what people are screaming for

Are they? I have 7 Hornby models in my E.Anglian collection (plus 1 Lima yet to be replaced). ALL my Hornby ones have had the fan linkage removed, lights disconnected, and all dcc wiring removed to simple DC standards. All unwanted extra complications and expense. If I was screaming, it wasn't to include them, but ignore them.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

16 hours ago, Legend said:

Bachmann don’t have such a following and will be known of by enthusiasts in much the same way as Accurascale

Very questionable. Walk into a model railway retailer's premises and look at the exposure of the brands. On par with Hornby for exposure, and retailers don't buy stock that doesn't shift.

 

Never forget, the brand customer in most cases is retailers. If the retailers say yes to a product offering, that's the green light for production. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, stewartingram said:

Are they? I have 7 Hornby models in my E.Anglian collection (plus 1 Lima yet to be replaced). ALL my Hornby ones have had the fan linkage removed, lights disconnected, and all dcc wiring removed to simple DC standards. All unwanted extra complications and expense. If I was screaming, it wasn't to include them, but ignore them.

 

I'm the same.

 

But there is no mistaking that most now seem to want the gimmicks whether it's sound, spinning fans, opening doors, or working lamps and firebox flicker on steam engines.

 

Some can't even be bothered to fit passengers to coaches anymore so are paying extra to have them fitted....

 

I'm afraid it isn't just the "Baby Boomer" generation with money, it's the youngsters that have grown up with technology. I'm a skint Luddite!

 

 

Jason

[SteveyDee68]

As someone whose second ever loco was a Triang Hornby Class 31, I welcome both these new entrants into the market as I simply daren’t risk investing in a Hornby model given its reputation as suffering from Mazak Rot to replace my childhood loco!
 

Then again, I have lots of pre-ordered shunting locos to fund … 

 

Where did I put that credit card?

 

Steve S

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, SteveyDee68 said:

As someone whose second ever loco was a Triang Hornby Class 31, I welcome both these new entrants into the market as I simply daren’t risk investing in a Hornby model given its reputation as suffering from Mazak Rot to replace my childhood loco!
 

Then again, I have lots of pre-ordered shunting locos to fund … 

 

Where did I put that credit card?

 

Steve S

The first three releases suffered from it and the rest don't. I had a first release one that had the problem and another one from the second batch released in 2006 which is fine after 18 years, most of the versions made are unaffected.

The Triang ones can suffer from 'plastic rot' where liberal application of 3-in-1 when oiling has resulted in the inner body and roof getting coated and slowly degrading until they crumble - quite a few have met their deaths that way. 

Edited February 11 by andyman7

[NBL]

3 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Are they? I have 7 Hornby models in my E.Anglian collection (plus 1 Lima yet to be replaced). ALL my Hornby ones have had the fan linkage removed, lights disconnected, and all dcc wiring removed to simple DC standards. All unwanted extra complications and expense. If I was screaming, it wasn't to include them, but ignore them.

Yes, people are wanting them.  I don't, even though I use DCC, but the market wants them, which is why the manufacturers provide them.

 

I still rate Lima's 31 and 47 very highly, a bit of work and they really hold their own.  Getting the shape right is much more important than dazzling lights and spinning fans.

[Butler Henderson]

3 hours ago, NBL said:

Yes, people are wanting them.  I don't, even though I use DCC, but the market wants them, which is why the manufacturers provide them.

 

I still rate Lima's 31 and 47 very highly, a bit of work and they really hold their own.  Getting the shape right is much more important than dazzling lights and spinning fans.

Even though the Lima 47 is too narrow?

[MidlandRed]

I guess like others, had Bachmann released models that fit my period of modelling, I would most certainly have ordered. There are plusses and minuses with both models but in general they appear both to be to a high standard. I’m interested that Bachmann is using a 5 pole motor, something which appeals to me, at least. 

[NBL]

19 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Even though the Lima 47 is too narrow?

To me, it looks in proportion, I even think the first HJ 47 looks fine,  HJ's new one doesn't look right to me, though Bachmann's new version is the best so far.

 

I don't scrutinise my models with a ruler, life is way too short to worry about a millimeter out here and there.  I want to enjoy my models, not get antagonised if a window frame doesn't have the exact radiused corners.

[jjb1970]

I quite like the current Bachmann tiered structure for their new super detail models. I am not interested in sound, working fans and all sorts of other trick features, I just want a good, detailed model which is vanilla in terms of trick features. Others want all the bells and whistles and can buy the full fat version. And those who like sound but aren't interested in some of the other features have the mid tier option. I think it's a clever way of serving different segments with the same tooling.

 

On prices, something which is very easy to fall into is thinking that our own views represent the views of others. The fact that I might be very price sensitive and think models to expensive, or that I am not bothered about price and will pay whatever is necessary for a model I like may be true for me, it doesn't say anything about anybody else. The fact that the top versions are selling out quickly doesn't surprise me as if you look at RMWeb posts it is clear that there is no shortage of people with huge amounts committed to pre-orders and who aren't worried about prices. It's equally clear others are at the opposite end of the spectrum, and I think most are somewhere on a spectrum between these two ends. 

[jjb1970]

On the model, the obvious answer ro all the stuff about duplication would be:

 

-if you want a tip top 31 and want the Bachmann model then buy the Bachmann model;

-if you want a tip top 31 and want the Accurascale model then buy the Accurascale model;

-if you want a tip top 31 and you are not wedded to either manufacturer then take a look at the models being made by both, price and other factors which may matter to you and then decide which one to buy; and

-if you're not interested in the 31 and are not intending to buy one then why does it matter and why would it vex you?

 

I don't see why the decision making process of model suppliers in deciding which subjects to model is our business. If anything it gives us as consumers more choice and keeps producers on their toes if they know their release has to stand on its feet against a rival release.

[40002]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

On the model, the obvious answer ro all the stuff about duplication would be:

 

-if you want a tip top 31 and want the Bachmann model then buy the Bachmann model;

-if you want a tip top 31 and want the Accurascale model then buy the Accurascale model;

-if you want a tip top 31 and you are not wedded to either manufacturer then take a look at the models being made by both, price and other factors which may matter to you and then decide which one to buy; and

-if you're not interested in the 31 and are not intending to buy one then why does it matter and why would it vex you?

 

I don't see why the decision making process of model suppliers in deciding which subjects to model is our business. If anything it gives us as consumers more choice and keeps producers on their toes if they know their release has to stand on its feet against a rival release.

Agreed, it seems to me that for BR era models at least any manufacturer can make any model they want but obviously they need to look at the current and future market place and assess what's viable for them. I don't see many complaints about Heljen going up against Bachmann with their latest 47 but because the 31 is against Accurascale it seems to have sparked a particular dislike.  I imagine Bachmann do see Accurascale as a significant threat to their business given how quickly they are growing and the number of models they are releasing, hopefully there room for both to exist otherwise that will be to the detriment to the hobby.